Here starts the auto-generated transcription of How ISIS Began in Colorado with Dr. Nabeel Jabbour – Part 1:
The country. They’re random terrorists and brutal endeavors. News flash America. Newsflash America. These Muslim extremists are, are alive and well.
They are not dead, and their video is not gratuitous, and it irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the truth about Muslims podcast, the official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Alright.
So here’s what we’re gonna do. We’ve got, we’ve got a lot of really good recordings from doctor Nabil Jabbour, and it’s way too much to put into one show. It’s a good problem to have. Yeah. So the the bottom line is we had a decision to make.
We could either edit it down and take out a lot of content that, you know, might be just filler, or we could break it into several shows. And after listening to it, I’ve just determined there’s there’s really no filler. Right. He just has a lot of amazing things to say. Well, I think it’s just that he he has been studying this.
You know, this is his doctoral degree, was in looking specifically at the, you know, beginnings of Islamic fundamentalism. All of his research was done in Arabic and specifically looking at Egypt. And so this guy is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to what’s happening today. And when you read his book, it’s almost prophetic, the things he talks about. Wait.
So Nabil Jabbour Jabbour’s, he’s an expert in Islamic fundamentalism? Yes. That’s his that’s his that’s his, his forte. That’s his forte. His his doctoral, dissertation is actually called Rumbling Volcano, and it’s specifically looking at, Wow Wow.
And just in case you guys are wondering, like, why I don’t know any of this stuff, it’s because I was actually on vacation. Yeah. Haven’t haven’t been able to, be here this week. So on these recordings, you’re gonna notice that I’m not there, so don’t be too sad. Yeah.
I didn’t I didn’t kick Howard to the curb. He just didn’t show up for work. Right. I’ll I’ll just be on the intros and the outros, but I the cool thing is I get to listen to it as you guys listen to it, and it’s kind of exciting for me because, I wasn’t here for the interview, so I get to just, dwell on it afterward, I guess. Well, it was actually really interesting, Howard.
As I was listening and talking with with doctor Jabbour, I was kinda thinking, alright. What would Howard ask right about now? I didn’t throw my voice or anything and try to sound like you, but I really was in my brain thinking, what would Howard say? Yeah. What would the guy that doesn’t know anything ask?
I was kinda no. It wasn’t like that. I was thinking, you know, I think Howard’s questions are much more intriguing than mine. And so when Howard asked a question, people are like, yeah. Yeah.
And I’m thinking to myself, than mine. And so when Howard asked a question, people are like, yeah. Yeah. And I’m thinking to myself, why are you asking that question? I was trying to get inside the the brain of Howard.
What would Howard say? Right. So anyway, yeah. He was special to the show. Just wanna say that.
Yeah. It was a full day full day though of of interviews. Nabil and I spent the whole afternoon together and just kinda I was picking his brain. And I I asked him just, you know, imagine that we’re in a coffee shop and and I’m asking you questions. Like, I just learned that this is kinda your your field of expertise and I’ve got a lot of questions.
And so that’s kinda how we did it. And he is he’s an academic, so it was difficult to get him to engage that way. Right. Because, I mean, if you get a professor, it’s, like, almost like, you know, they want to teach. Right.
Lecture. Right. And so instead, it was like, okay. Nope. Let’s have a conversation.
So in the end, I think we got some really good material. So I’m excited. I’m actually excited for you to hear it, Howard. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about Nabil because, all I know about him is his name.
Okay. So where is he from? Well, Syria. He was born, I believe, in Syria. It comes from a Syrian descent, but, has Lebanese nationality and spent 15 years working and living in Egypt and then, was blacklisted actually in 1991, and then came to the United States, moved to Colorado Springs, and became an American citizen.
Where why was he blacklisted in Egypt? What was he doing? Well, he was working with the Mission Organization, and I’m not exactly sure the details of the the why he was blacklisted, but that can be I have his testimony as well that we recorded. So we’ll release that at another time. Cool.
And he’s so he’s a Christian. He is. He’s actually born, you know so it’s different. Right? In the Middle East, it’s like they have a a Christian heritage.
So his parents were Presbyterian, and so he said at one point in the interview, he said he inherited his Presbyterianism from his parents. You know, his parents put the fear of God in him, but didn’t share the gospel with him. And so, you’ll hear a little bit in there about his brother coming as an international student to the United States and meeting Jesus and then him being very influential in converting him, sharing the gospel with him and him giving his life to Jesus. Got it. So he’s not a Muslim background believer.
No. He’s an Arab Christian. Wow. Okay. So this is a really cool take because, you know, obviously, he’s Arab.
He lived over there. And, Yeah, man. I can’t wait to hear, all that he has to share. Yeah. I don’t even wanna attempt the accent.
Yeah. That that might be a little offensive. But, no, when when when he you know, he’s using some of the terminology, you’re just like, that’s how you pronounce that word. Right? You’re like, that’s official.
Yeah. So, I mean, it’s one of those interesting things. When you meet a Arab Christian, it’s always pretty interesting because, of course, when they pray, they pray to Allah because there’s no other Arab term for God. Oh, right. You know what I mean?
And that’s right. So they have this heritage of Christianity that goes all the way, I mean, much further than you or I have. I mean, we’re like first, second generation. He has a heritage that goes back quite a quite a ways. Right.
And and, I’m sure, like, some of our listeners, they’re probably, like, you know, their head hair standing on the ends because you just said that he calls God Allah, but that What else is he supposed to call him? Right. He’s not gonna call him God. No. It’s not an Arabic word.
Right. He speaks Arabic. That’s my mind just was blown a little bit there. We’ll do a whole show on We need to. Yeah.
We do. Because that’s that’s pretty controversial right now. Yeah. Well, you know, actually, we were talking, before the interview, and, we were talking about how one of the Bible translations that’s in Arabic, somebody recently has changed it and put, the article in there instead of so they changed it basically from Allah to the Allah to make a differentiation. Distinguish.
Yeah. And he said, how would you feel if somebody took the liberty of changing your NIV bible to the god. And I was like, woah. The god. Yeah.
The god so loved the world that he gave his you know what I mean? It it is interesting because in one sense, it makes, obviously, very makes it very specific. But it also kind of, allows for all these other gods. Right? Because you’re talking about the god.
Whereas in our text, it’s more like God, the only god. Right. Big g, little g. No. I I think more the point was here’s an outsider coming and deciding for you what the proper terminology is.
Right. You know what I mean? That would be tough. And so this was, I I can’t remember the context in which this happened, but, yeah. Anyway, so that’s you know, he comes from a very interesting perspective, and he’s written a few books.
One of my favorites is actually, cross through let me make sure I got this right because there’s a couple with the title similar. The Crescent Through the Eyes of the Cross. Alright. And that’s all about worldview and and Muslim worldview. And so if you’re kinda wondering why is it that it seems like the Muslim world views it this way, that book really unpacks it.
And I I think that’s one of my favorite books because it kinda gives you insights into how Muslims might view certain events. Right. Yeah. So, anyhoo, it was a good day, good interviews, but it’s way too long to put into 1 podcast. So we’re gonna break it into 4 sections in the very first section which you guys are about to listen to is all about the connections with how all of this begins and believe it or not Colorado.
You just said Islamic fundamentalism in Colorado. Yeah. They go together. It’s it’s bizarre. And I don’t think a lot of people know this, but there is a strong connection with the United States, an international student sent to Colorado, and the sort of cradle of Islamic ideology that we now see being played out today.
So that’s that’s what this first episode is gonna be about. Alright. Let’s listen to it. One of the big figures in Islamic fundamentalism is a man from Egypt. His name is Sayed Qutb.
If you really want to understand Islamic fundamentalism, Sayyid Qutb is a key figure. How come we don’t hear about Sayyid Qutb? Am I saying that right? It sounds it sounds much better when you say it. Say it again.
Sayed Qutb. Okay. And so you’re saying in order to understand fundamentalism we need to understand this man’s life. Yes. That is right.
So tell me a little bit about his life. Well, he was born in 1906 in Egypt He went to a Quranic school where they, memorized the Quran and study basically. It’s like a religious school. Is that pretty common for students at that point in time in Egypt to go? It used to be common, now not common anymore.
It still exists in other countries such as Pakistan, but in Egypt it’s not, that, that, widespread. And did did Sayid Qutb memorize the Quran? Yes. By the age of 12 he memorized the Quran. Quran is almost as large as the New Testament.
Many many people compete on TV in Egypt, by memorizing the Quran, and they get checked, and they get prizes, etcetera. So what exactly about this guy’s life makes him so so much of a key leader in this movement? Well, he when he finished his primary education, he went to public schools. And then when he graduated from high school he went to teacher’s college and he graduated appointed as a teacher in government schools in the city of Cairo. And, with time, the government recognized that he’s very sharp.
So they gave him a scholarship. Before that he was appointed as an inspector of government schools. So he was an educator? Yeah. Okay.
So later on he was sent to the United States with a unique scholarship. Basically, they wanted him to go with 2 goals. Number 1 is they wanted him to get polished or get westernized. Secondly, they wanted him to get exposed to the public schools in America so that he will come back to Egypt and reform the educational system in Egypt. So at this point in time, does Egypt really value the way that the west is doing things?
Very much so. Oh, okay. Yeah. He got an on a boat in Alexandria coming to the States through Europe. And within, within hours, he panicked with a thought.
If I couldn’t survive as a Muslim in Egypt, because during his secondary years and university years, he became a secular Muslims. He thought, if I couldn’t live as a victorious Muslim in Egypt, where about 90% of the population are Muslims, How can I survive as a Muslim in America? It’s a really good question. Yeah. So he went to his cabin in the ship and got in a small, he had packed a small copy of the Quran in his case, He got it and he had forgotten most of what he used to know by memory and started to read.
The more he read, the more he wanted to pray. With time, he started gaining courage to approach other Muslims on the ship, and he’ll ask them, where are you going? They’ll say, to Paris or to London and he’ll say how’s your walk with God? They’ll say half half. He’ll say if it was half half in Egypt, how can you survive in London or Paris?
And 1 by 1 to his cabin, pray together from the Quran, and pray together. One night he was in his cabin. All of a sudden, a beautiful young lady barged in, a European woman who was most probably half drunk. She looked in and she said, I like to sleep in this cabin. He was shocked.
Can you imagine somebody who had never traveled outside his country having this situation? He said, what do you mean? There’s only 1 bed. She said, one bed is enough for 2. He got her out of his cabin, closed the door, knelt down, and started to pray.
So he came to America with his antennas up. That’s how his trip started coming to the West. It’s amazing to think that the religious, fervor started even before arriving. That he he knew he had to be on guard That is right. Before he arrived.
That’s right. Alright. So that is definitely relevant to the story. So what happens when he gets to the United States? The first place he arrived to was, New York City.
Now, it was 1948. This is, right after the 2nd World War. What really was a shock to his system was materialism. He was amazed. What people are talking about are money, and what they are buying with their money.
All they talked about their cars, their houses, and he wrote a letter to one of his friends back in Egypt. He said, I long to meet an American with whom I can discuss real issues in life. That’s really sad. Approximately, how old is he at this point in his life? Is he in his 30?
In 1906. And in 1948, he went to the States. So he was about 42 years old. Wow. And so he’s just desiring to have a relationship.
Yeah. That’s right. 42. 42. Yeah.
So he’s just desiring to have a relationship of some substance when he comes to the United States and he can’t find one. He longed to have a meaningful discussion about real issues in life, and it’s said that the people he met were materialistic people. My brother, on the other hand, came to the States in 1950s to study for, his master’s in engineering. While in America, he came to know Christ. Mhmm.
Now my parents put the fear of God in us. I come from a Presbyterian background. My parents put the fear of God in us, but they didn’t know how to share the gospel with us. So my brother met the right kind of Americans in America, and he came to know Christ. He went back to the Middle East, and he was the primary instrument in my coming to know Christ.
I am so glad that my brother came as an international student to the States. I am sad that Sayed Qutb came as an international student to the States. I wish he never came. This is this is a really interesting way of looking at it. We have 2 very different paths, 2 very different trajectories going forward, And it all comes down to who these people encounter.
Yeah. So who did Sayed Khutab encounter while he was here and how did that affect him going forward? Okay. So we talked about, New York, and the encounter was with people who all they cared about is money, and he came to the conclusion that the real God in America is the dollar. Then he moved to DC to study English, to improve his he he knew in the English language to some extent, but he need to improve it so that he can enroll at a university in Greeley, Colorado.
So the stage of preparate improving his English was in DC, and during that time, he had to have a surgery, the tonsillectomy, removing his tonsils. And while he was recovering in his room, which was next to a room where nurses and doctors had their coffee breaks, and as he was in the in his room recovering from the surgery, he heard screaming of joy. And so he started asking what happened? What happened? 1 of the the nurses, went to his room and told him great news.
He said what’s the great news? He said Hassanal Banna was assassinated. Okay. So who is Hassanal Banna? Hassanal Banna was another person, another prominent leader of Islamic fundamentalism.
He also was born in 1906 in Egypt. He also went to a Quranic school. He also, by the age of 12, memorized the whole of the Quran. But unlike Sayyid Qutb, in his high school days, he sought committed Muslims to fellowship with. He met some mystic Muslims.
He joined them for a while. They focused on their relationship with God, and they didn’t do any evangelism. So he got disillusioned with them and left them. Then he went to Teachers College, not the same, time like Sayyid Qutb, So they didn’t know one another at at that time. And in 1928, he graduated and went to a city called Ismailiyeh in Egypt, where he started the Muslim Brotherhood.
And what was the what was the point behind the Muslim brotherhood? What was he really trying to establish with this group? It’s a good question. He, you know, he started He wanted to become a teacher because he wanted to influence the new generations. So from day 1, he started influencing his students.
In the evening, in those days, there were no televisions. So in the evenings, he’ll go to cafes where men sit and drink tea and smoke the hookah. Mhmm. And, so he will join them and drink tea with them and ask them, you know, important questions such as why do we have so many problems in Egypt? And he helps them to come to the conclusion, we have forsaken God, and we are living with the consequences.
In 1933, he started a movement which, came to be known as the Muslim Brotherhood. This movement became the trunk of the tree, out of which most of the branches of Islamic fundamentalism came from. It is a very important movement, and recently, they were they took control of the government for a year and a portion of of another year in Egypt when Muhammad Morsi became the president of Egypt. So the Muslim Brotherhood has been around for a while? Yes.
Since 1933. And they’ve had a pretty large following in Egypt, it seems like. Very much so. And so what is the relationship between Hassan Albana and Sayyid Qutb? Like, how did they meet?
One another. Okay. And but he became a hero for Sayed Khotb. Mhmm. So, Sayed Khotb was shocked by the response of this nurse, of this nurse who said, great news, Hazal Banna got assassinated.
He thought, why do Americans create caricatures of great men and make it justifiable to hate them? I mean, it’s a good question. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that Hassan al Bana, when he’s creating the Muslim Brotherhood, do you think he had in mind some of the radicalization that we see today or do you think he really just wanted to have a fundamentalist movement back to making Egypt more Islamic.
I think it was more Islamic, but with time, Hassle Banna got involved in politics. Mhmm. And as a result, he lived with the conceit with consequences and got assassinated for it. So the show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors, and this week’s sponsors are It’s Wammer Center. It’s Wammer Center.
It’s Wammer Center. Philip, Zwamer Center. Zwamer Center. And what does the Zwamer Center do? Talks about Muslims and and tells them on the computer that we love you.
Very nice. The Swimmer Center equips the church to reach Muslims. The Swimmer Center has been educating people about reaching Muslims before it was cool. You know, something important I need to say about Sayed Kotb. It’s not only the assassination of Hassan al Banna that really made a permanent difference in her life.
Even far more was the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948. And then and the government in the United States recognized it right away. This time, he was really shocked. He thought from what he knew about the Bible and about Christians that Christians are supposed to practice justice. He thought why is it when it comes to Israel, Christians Christians forget about justice and stand with Israel no matter what?
He crossed the line. So was he in the United States when this happened? Yeah. So he has the encounter with the woman on the boat. He experiences the materialism in New York City.
And then while in Washington, DC, he sees the politics of the establishment of Israel and the assassination. Of the possibility of Israel is 1948. But before that, there was preparation for it. And, he was at that time in Egypt, and sometime while he was in the state, Israel was established as a state. Yeah.
So you can you can see how going with the defenses there Yeah. And then seeing what he experiences. Okay. So let’s go forward from from the assassination of Hassan al Bana, the nurses reaction, what’s next for Saeed Khan? After DC, he went to Greeley, Colorado where there is a famous, program on education, and that’s why he went to Greeley.
And Greeley, at that time, in, at was a rural rural area in comparison with what he saw in New York and DC. I can imagine. He thought, finally, I found the America that I’ve been looking for. He didn’t hear about the partying on Friday nights Saturday nights that took place outside of campus. So in Greeley, he had various experiences.
One, major experience he had was with a football player who was African American, and he was the by far the most important player on the football team in that university. And can you believe it that African American didn’t have a Caucasian friend, an American white friend? Yeah. It’s the 19 fifties. I can imagine.
Yeah. And believe that’s 1949. 1949. Yeah. And, you know, the only group that accepted him was were foreign students.
So he joined the foreign students club, the international students club at the university. If he wanted to have a haircut, he didn’t find 1 barber in Greeley who would offer him to cut his hair, so he’ll have to drive all the way to Denver to have a haircut. A very important experience that, Seyid Hoth had one time, along with this football player, went together to the movies. When they arrived to the theater, the man at the door looked at them. Now Sayid Qutb is a little bit dark, but not like the African American guy.
So he looked at them, and he said, you can’t go in. So Sayyid Qutb said, why not? He said, you are the n word. Mhmm. So he said, what do you mean?
I am Egyptian. He said, I’m sorry. I didn’t know. You can go in but not him. So he said I won’t go in either.
Wow. So he was shocked by materialism, he was shocked by the Christians and lack of justice, then he was shocked by racism in America. Did he have any encounters with Christians while he was in Greenlee? Did he He there is a story about him. Actually, recently, I taught a course at a seminary in Colorado Springs, and one of my students comes from Greeley.
She told me about the church that he went to, that Sayed Kotb went to. It seems on the weekend, the cafeteria cafeteria and the university was closed. So the students, especially the international students, were trying to save money by, eating wherever they can, have food. So it looks like on Sundays, one of the churches has a potluck lunch, and he went to that, church. And, there was a dancing party at that church.
And, you can imagine coming from Egypt Yeah. That this would not have been something that he would have felt appropriate. To a different church. Yeah. Yeah.
Wow. So so how does he fit into the picture? He the you know, he had short time in California after Greeley and then went back to Egypt determined to join the Muslim Brotherhood. Alright. This week’s sponsors.
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- CIU educates people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. He went back to Egypt as a committed Muslim fundamentalist and joined the Muslim Brotherhood. In 1954, the Muslim Brotherhood were accused for an attempt to to assassinate president Gamal Abdel Nasser, and, Sayyid Qutb was arrested, and he got imprisoned, you know, back and forth for about 10 years. But because he had so many sicknesses, he was, moving from the prison to the hospital of the prison, and back to the prison, back and forth between the prison and the hospital, during his imprisonment time, he he wrote a complete commentary on the Quran.
It’s called In the Shade of the Quran. And that commentary is extremely influential in shaping the minds of Muslim fundamentalists. For instance, the brother of Sayid Qutb, his name is Mohammed Qutb, ended up becoming a professor at Jardai University in Saudi Arabia. Osama bin Laden was a student at that university. He didn’t take courses from Muhammad Kooth, the brother of Sayyid Kooth, but Muhammad Kooth was asked to give a lecture once a month to the student body, voluntary lecture for the students.
And Osama bin Laden attended these lectures. He was at crossroads in his life at that time. And as a result of the influence of Muhammad Qutb, Osama bin Laden took the road that he has chosen. It’s amazing that the the connection with being in the United States, and I can’t help but wonder what if he had had a similar experience like your brother? Yeah.
How different the world would be today? That is right. This guy is that is right. At the very core of everything happening today is this guy who came as an international student to the United States. So are his ideas at this point radical or are his ideas reform?
How would you describe Sayyid Qutb at this point and his ideas? About militancy, but he himself did not practice it. You know, violence escalates. Hassan al Banna wrote certain things, say it could took them further. He emphasized the Takfir principle, which is, the good guys versus the bad guys.
By the way, let me go back as a background to this Takfir principle. While he was in the prison hospital at one time, there was a rebellion that took place in the prison, and the police were, so savage in the way they treated the prisoners. And many prisoners were taken as wounded people to that hospital. When he saw how these Muslim policemen or prison guards were treating the people. He was Fellow Muslims.
Yeah. Fellow Muslims. He thought how could Muslims treat fellow Muslims this way? So that’s when he followed a principle that was, introduced by somebody called Ibn Taymiyyah, which is called the fear principle, which basically, drawing 2 circles, the good guys versus the bad guys. So even Muslims can be bad guys, and they can be considered the enemy.
And during his time of imprisonment, he did not only write a commentary on the Quran, several volumes, he wrote a book called Milestones, which is extremely important. I used to have it as a required reading at all the seminaries where I taught. What exactly is Takfir? What does it mean? Takfir means declaring somebody as kafir.
In other words, a person who is not a believer. Okay. So it’s it’s saying they’re no longer in the faith. Yeah. And so it’s him seeing Muslims treating other Muslims with such brutality that he has to make the decision they can’t be Muslims.
That’s right. They wouldn’t be doing it. That’s right. And this is the same principle that we’re seeing played out today and a lot of the radical movements where radical Muslims are killing fellow Muslims because they’re Takfir as they’re they’re not Muslims anyway. Yeah.
Wow. Basically, they excommunicate them from the circle of the faith. So what exactly did he write in this book Milestones? In this book, by the way, the way he wrote it, he’ll have it smuggled out one chapter at a time, and basically he wrote about his convictions based on his experiences in America. Wow.
It’s a short book. It’s can be downloaded free on the Internet. It was smuggled out of prison, one chapter at a time. And when finally all the book was smuggled out, they got it published. Right away, it got sold out.
Then they reprint it, then it got sold out, several reprints. Then the government realized there’s something important about this book. They read it and they found it’s dangerous, so they banned it. What what did they find so dangerous? Because basically he was, critical of Muslims unless they were photocopies of Muslim fundamentalists, And, the government in Egypt is was trying to, emphasize socialism and pan Arabism.
For him, they were not real Muslims, so he was perceived as an enemy of the government. And does he outline and describe how Muslims are to correct this problem in the book? Yes. He basically is saying that they should go back to the fundamentals of the faith, going back to original Islam at the time of Muhammad because the Islam that exists today is a corrupted form of Islam. He uses that term Jahiliyah doesn’t he in that book referencing that, America was like a pre Islamic Jahiliyah Yeah.
Is that term. Yeah. Right. Almost like barbaric. Barbaric.
It’s like the time, according to Muslim historians, they refer to the time before Mohammed as the barbaric time or al Jahiliyyah. So he refers to the government and the Islam, which was practiced in Egypt as a form of Jahiliyyah or barbaric religion. And did he see that I’m assuming because Egypt was sending him to the United States to study education and they really valued the way the West was doing things. I’m sure he came back to Egypt with the desire to protect Egypt from becoming like the west. Basically, he was against modernity.
He believed that modernity is ruining Islam. Yeah. So how does he fit I mean, how does the story conclude with saying something important about the book. When finally the book was banned, the government knew that this man is very dangerous and the the the court, sentenced him to hanging. But they didn’t want to hang him because they were afraid he’ll become a martyr and become a saint among the Muslim fundamentals.
So they sent him Sadat, who was in the government, but was not the president. The president was Nasser. So Saadat went to visited him in prison and pleaded to him to recant. He refused, because if he recanted, they wouldn’t have hanged him. Then they sent him his sister, the sister of of Sayed Kotb.
She pleaded to him. She said, just recant, and they will set you free. They promised me that they’ll set you free. You can go to a country in the Gulf such as Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or somewhere in the Gulf countries, and you can write as many books as you want. He said, if I recant, whatever I write will be of no value.
Mhmm. So he refused to recant. And in 1966, he got hanged. At that time, Egypt government thought we eradicated Islamic fundamentalism. I read so many books written by Muslim fundamentalists that I came to the conclusion nobody can eradicate Islamic fundamentalism.
Excuse me for using this analogy. We can eradicate a generation of mosquitoes, But unless we identify the swamps and address them every few years, we have to wage with a new war against a new generation of mosquitoes. And what scares me is that every new generation will be tougher to deal with. Is it is it fair to make the comparison that in some ways Sayyid Qutb became a martyr for Islamic fundamentalism? Definitely.
And so in the same way that we would say the blood of the martyr is the seed of the church. It is the spreading of the gospel. Do Islamic fundamentalists see some of these guys as martyrs? Bin Laden, Sayyid Qutb. Muslims believe Islam is a tree that get gets nourished from the blood of the martyrs.
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Just got done listening to Nabil Jabbour. That was that was amazing. Just to kinda know the backstory, I think, is so fascinating, especially with, all the the the the stuff that we’re inundated with on the news today. It’s kinda neat to kinda hear what how everything kinda started. Yeah.
I don’t I don’t know that a lot of people realize that there’s a connection with this guy coming to the United States as an international student. Right. And you we kinda heard, like, a little bit of the backstory of Osama bin Laden. You know? And I think that made it more fascinating.
But this, here kind of, like, even going, before Osama. Right? And, before a lot of this stuff had happened, it’s kinda neat to hear, like, the the very, very beginnings. Mhmm. And so but there’s a few questions that I’m I’m sure that everyone else is wondering, that’s that’s not in the know.
He throws around terms like the brotherhood and and Al Qaeda and so, like, is there anything, like, really simple way to understand who the brotherhood and and who Al Qaeda is and all that kind of stuff? Yeah. I think he makes the comment, and he and he says this in his book as well, that that the Muslim Brotherhood is the trunk of which all the branches of Islamic fundamentalism have come. So he would make the case that the the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al Bana, basically started this group in order to kind of protect Egypt from becoming westernized. Because if you look back at the time when Hassan al Banna does all this, this is the time at which there’s a a significant battle going on for what the Middle East is gonna look like.
And the United States is very involved in sort of kinda trying to set up democracies in sort of a secular government in all of these different places. And so Hassan al Bana’s goal with the Muslim Brotherhood is to, keep it from becoming westernized. And so it’s multinational. It’s not just Egypt. Well, no.
It is it is just Egypt at that point. At that point, the Muslim Brotherhood is is purely Egyptian. And this is the fifties? The Muslim Brotherhood goes back even further to the thirties, I believe. Maybe it’s the yeah.
1933, I believe, is the beginnings of that. But but in in the 1900, this decade. So well, we’re not 1900, but you know what I’m saying. Right. Yeah.
20th century. This is when all this is going on. That’s so interesting. So, so it like, Nabil Jabbour just gives us a snapshot into kind of how these thoughts have just kind of exploded from this one guy’s mind. Yeah.
Well, that’s the really neat well, I say neat. It’s not very neat. Interesting. Interesting. That’s the interesting point, that when Sayed Qutb comes back to to Egypt, the Muslim brotherhood is going and they really need you know, Sayyid Qutb isn’t the the charismatic leader.
He’s the theological mind. So he’s kinda like the give the give me the reasons from the Quran Right. That we can do this. Right. And the this gives a whole new level of importance to international student ministry.
Right? Right. Seriously. And that’s what I was thinking. I’m like and and you guys kind of touched on it too.
Like, how different would have been if his experience was much like Nabil Jabbour’s brother? Oh, no. When he said that, when he was sharing that story talking about how his brother came to America, and he’s so thankful because his brother met Jesus. And then And the effects thereof. Yes.
I mean, Nabeel Jibor effect. Right. Nabeel Jibor Jibor is writing all of these books, helping us to understand Islam and and and reaching Muslims and things like that. And and that wouldn’t have happened if his brother had had the same experience that Qatab had. Right.
No. His experience, is not a good one, and I think the saddest one was the experience he had with the the Christians. He does write. Sayyid Khatab has written more than just milestones. He’s written a lot of different things, and a lot of it is about his experience in America, which is becoming really popularized right now by Muslims.
You mean other people are reading it because of You can get it online. It’s free. It’s accessible PDF format, and you can read about and it’s being translated from the the Arabic to English so that people can see. And he writes extensively on his experiences in America. Yep.
What he sees. You know what I find that’s really interesting is that we’ve been talking about how, Muslims are coming to know the Lord simply because of looking at fundamentalism and seeing, wow, like, if that’s what Islam is, I’m not really sure if I wanna be a part of Islam any longer. But here on the same sense, but on the on the opposite extreme, Qatab comes to the states, and he’s not a strong Muslim at this point. And then he sees this immorality, right, in in in American culture and, the way we’re we live, the way we do things. And he’s thinking to himself, if this is the way the West is, this is the way modernization is, if this is the direction that it’s gonna take us, then I don’t wanna have anything to do it.
And it drives him back Yep. To, you know, fundamental, Islam. Right? Well, that’s that’s that term that we use, that Jahaliyah term, that idea that before Mohammed came, before the Arabs had a prophet, that they were in sort of a barbaric state. Right.
They were backwards. Everything was just barbaric. They were burying people in the sand. It was just chaos. And Saeed Khutb uses that term when he describes the United States and says that while they seem to be advancing in modernity, they seem to be advancing in medicine, in science, and all of the latest industry and engineering and education.
That’s what he was sent here to study, education. He was supposed to go back to Egypt and become, in charge of the education ministry in Egypt to make it like the United States. Yeah. Instead, he sees it all and says while they think they’re moving forward, they’re actually going backwards because they’re spiritually bankrupt. Yeah.
And that’s so interesting because, you know, sometimes we think, oh, you know, like, the way Muslims think is so backwards, you know, because it’s so counterintuitive to what we think in our world view. That’s interesting. Modernization is so important for us and and and technological advances and, you know, and we and I I know there’s there’s people writing and articles being written about, is technology good for us? And but in here in the fifties Mhmm. Right, this gentleman has this experience and he just, you know, from that point on, the way he writes, it’s it’s so affected him that now he’s influencing millions of Muslims, to go back to the way, you know, pre modernity for for for Muslims.
That’s right. And so when you look at ISIS, it’s just like, okay. That doesn’t make any sense. Why would they wanna go back? And then you remember, like, we were talking, I think, in this podcast about slavery, how they’re going back to, you know, owning slaves saying that that’s okay because that’s how it was in Mohammed’s day.
And it’s just so interesting to see, now how they got to that conclusion, like, why it would be better, to go backwards. Because we think in those terms back in the day, like, we were so ignorant. We we didn’t understand. We didn’t have the conveniences and the comforts. And here he’s saying, no.
No. No. That’s all leading you to, you know, immorality, barbarianism. Right. That was his big thing is especially that particular meeting he has at the church.
Right. With the dance. Yeah. There’s a dance. Okay.
But that’s On the gramophone, they’re playing baby. It’s cold outside. Right. The room is filled with lust. I mean, he writes about all of this and it’s like the chest of the men and the chest of the women were meeting together.
The minister’s dimming the lights and everybody’s dancing and it and he actually makes the minister out to be like a matchmaker. Interesting. And this is what’s weird is it’s in the fifties. So I wouldn’t say that the fifties were like where, like, a lot of churches maybe were doing this, you know. This would have been a pretty liberal experience for a church in the fifties, I think.
Right. So it’s like, not I’m not saying it’s chance, but like, it is like not common. Like, you know, I would always see, in, you know, clips, Not I don’t even know. Like, just, you know, like, whenever I heard this kind of stuff, there’d be, like, chaperones. They’d be, like, leave room for the Holy Spirit.
That’s right. Put a balloon there. Room for the Holy Spirit. Right. That’s in a movie somewhere.
Right. Or they wouldn’t have dances at all. They’d be like, no way we’re gonna have dances. But here he goes to a church because he wants food Mhmm. Right, where all his college friends, you know, they’re they’re they’re hungry.
They’re college students. They go to a church for a potluck, and then there’s a dance. Yeah. And we’re okay. And I’m assuming that you heard, that they’re playing Baby It’s Cold Outside Right.
From the book. The gramophone. From the book. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. So, like, wow. He even mentions the song He even breaks the song down about what it means. Right. And the song is kind of seductive.
Like, when I hear it, I’m just like, oh. Oh. Sorry. Took the opportunity to single line it. Right.
But, yeah. So, I mean, I’m so grieved that his whole experience and then, of course, racism. And this is Colorado. Yeah. Imagine if he had gone to South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama.
Right. This is Colorado. So it’s That would be totally different. And I did find it interesting that when he said he’s an Egyptian, the guy said I’m sorry. Yeah.
Sorry. You can come in. You can come in. Yeah. Which is really interesting to see just that that paradigm there, at that at that time.
But that’s sad, especially the boat. That was a really weird one. Oh, encountering the, the woman that The human half drunk woman. Right? Wanting to sleep in the same bed.
She doesn’t know this guy. And he says it’s at that moment where he’s really questioning if he has what it takes. Do I have what it takes to maintain my Muslim faith while in America? And then he encounters this woman. Right.
And if you consider, like, in, like, an alternative universe, what if it was a woman that, that just had caught his eye and that he felt attraction for and it would it happened, you know, more naturally in the West kinda way? Maybe it would been a totally different story. But because she was so blatant Right. Not not being, you know, not being concerned at all about, you know, the fact that she was a woman and that she was half inebriated. I don’t know what half means.
But Yeah. You know, that still must have been shocking for, you know, a Muslim that had just come from Egypt. No matter how, you know, secular he was. Right. Yeah.
Right. And then experiencing that that how much have been must have been such culture shock. Yeah. I think that’s a there that’s a good analogy. There’s a a fair amount of culture shock, immorality, and then also, there’s a lot of political things going on with the United States and Egypt, with the Muslim Brotherhood, with political powers in Egypt.
And all of this, like I mentioned with Nabil, is a perfect storm. It is. And and it it there says a lot because, you know, whenever he, Nabeel Jabeel is talking about him in the very beginning, he just sounds like a man that’s very real about himself, a young man trying to figure out, okay, what do I believe? What do I not believe? Am I really a Muslim?
Am I not a Muslim? He’s just kind of on that on that fence. But by the end of his life, when his sister’s begging for his him to to recant Mhmm. His his his belief system is so solidified that he’s like, if I wrote anything else and I recanted, then my words would mean nothing. Well, he had suffered quite a bit at that point.
Being in prison. Being tortured. Yeah. Yeah. In hospital constantly, but he’s still writing.
Mhmm. And he his belief system has so solidified that he would not even recant to save his own life. Nope. And so therefore he he gets hanged which is so fascinating because I don’t know in the US, we’ve been doing lethal injections, if that, you know, but then here we have an old fashioned hanging. Yeah.
And this is 1966, I believe. Right. So this is this is a this is a hanging and and he gets hanged because and he knew he was gonna be hanged. Right. Because he believed so much, and and even just the demonizing idea of the of the West, of the modernity, moving that direction that he wanted to protect his his, people.
What what did you think about this idea of takfir, that concept of declaring someone to be non Muslim? Did it make sense the way he was explaining it that Sahid Quds have needed to kind of Right. Have this as an ability to be able to justify why these people were doing what they were doing to him when he was being beaten by fellow Muslims in prison and tortured. He needed to justify that they can’t be Muslims because they shouldn’t be doing something like that to me as a Muslim. Right.
I you know what I found that was really interesting about that was that, you know, he goes to the west and he can see that they’re the enemy, like, in in in his mind. They’re they’re immoral. They’re just a bad people. Overall, he has very little good experience, as far as his faith is concerned in America. So I can see how he can, you know, just be like, no, they’re bad.
But then he comes back to Egypt, and then all of a sudden he’s dealt with the same kind of thing. So what is he gonna do? He says, well, they’re Muslims. So his only option is to either to say, oh, we’re all bad. Right.
And he and he sees that the Egyptians are like, oh, man. That’s what we want. Right. We want westernization. They’re watching western movies.
They’re getting a western leader. They’re getting, you know, all of this. Yeah. Yeah. And so he has he has a decision to make.
He’s saying either, the West is wrong and we’re wrong as well. Or he has to say, no. No. The West is wrong. And these Muslims that are doing all these bad things Yep.
Wanting the bad things, they have to be wrong too. So I’m not gonna consider them Muslim. That’s right. And then therefore, he has to interpret the Quran in a way that that supports To justify it. Yeah.
Exactly. And then and then that comes out into the milestones. Right. When you read milestones, the jihad is always supposed to first and foremost be fought against your own Muslim society. Wow.
Okay. So how does Over overthrow these Muslim governments because they are legislating Muslim people, but they’re not legislating through the Sharia. Right. Which is why, again, this is another connection to modern day, fundamentalism. Is that why Sharia law is becoming so so, popular in some of these countries that are embracing fundamentalism?
Yep. Because he’s saying if this is a Muslim people and we are Muslim people, this is a Muslim country, then the only people capable of legislating are Muslims. And true Muslims. True Muslims. Not the Tuskegee law.
Muslims. Not the Kafir as he said that the true Muslims legislating legislation by God through Muslims. Right. And that’s why the jihad first has to be fought against secular Muslim governments, and that’s why he was eventually hanged. Right.
And I and I can’t help but wonder if the government had just decided to let him go, what would have happened? Oh, I I I don’t think he would have been nearly as influential. I think the death, like like we mentioned in the podcast, his death was considered martyrdom. And and I think that’s what’s key about next week’s episode is that there is a young man that is right there present. You mean literally there?
Well, the the lawyer and this will be in next week’s episode. The lawyer of Sayed Qutb is the uncle of Ayman al Zawahiri, who is the current leader of Al Qaeda Woah. And mastermind behind 911. There’s a connection here. This is all gonna make sense after 4 episodes.
Interesting. So you’re saying that there’s this web that begins with CutHub and takes us all the way to where we are now. Oh, yeah. Dude, I cannot wait to hear the next, next set of episodes, man. Yeah.
Good stuff. Well, that’s it for this week. Thank you guys so much for listening. We really thank, Nabil Jabbour. How long did you guys record?
4 hours, you said? We got about 3 and a half hours in, so I think we’re gonna break it down to probably 4 episodes, 30 minutes each, so we got some editing to do, but it’s it’s good stuff. Yeah. So, thank you again for listening, all you listeners out there, and please, put our name out there. Like, you know what we’re finding?
We’re finding that a lot of people don’t know how to listen to podcasts. Yeah. I’m shocked. I you know what? I’m just gonna go ahead and see.
Howard was talking about technology. I’ve got an old school phone, but I still listen to podcasts on my iPad. I actually have an iPad. Yeah. Yeah.
I dug it out of a drawer so that I could download podcasts because I like podcasts. Look cute. I’m getting rid of the iPhone. But, you know, take the time, like just, you know, like sell people on the idea of a podcast because we think it’s such a a cool way to, get the information out there. And, and so if you’re listening and you like the show, also review on iTunes.
You can subscribe there or on our Podomatic Yeah. We’re up to 5 reviews. Right. And they’re all 5 stars. Alright.
And they weren’t they weren’t written by me or Trevor. I actually asked Howard that. I was like, I’m gonna go write us a review. So it’s gonna say your name and I’m gonna be like, That’s right. And I’m gonna say, It’s me.
And I’m gonna say, I’m awesome. I’ll like us. But anyway, so, again, thank you for listening and, we’ll see you next week. Yeah. Be sure to tune in next week for part 2.