Here starts the auto-generated transcription of ISIS in a Nutshell: Dr. Nabeel Jabbour – Part 3:
Once again, Muslim terrorists A terrorist. Islamic extremists now. These terrorists of the country. They have random dramas and brutal endeavors. News flash America.
These and it certainly is not irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the truth about Muslims podcast, the official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Alright.
So we are on part 3 with the podcast with doctor Nabil Jabbour talking about the history of Islamic fundamentalism. Right. And this is titled ISIS in a nutshell. Yeah. I mean, we’ve gotten to the point where, you know, podcast 1, we talked about, the ideology of ISIS and sort of where it had its birthplace in Colorado Springs in Washington, New York with Sayyid Qutb.
Yeah, that was cool. And then we went from Sayyid Qutb to Ayman al Zawahiri. Talked a little bit about Hassan al Bana with the creation of the Muslim brotherhood but really focused on the relationship between, Sayyid Qutb, his trip in America going back to Egypt, and then his influence with his death in 1966 on the life of Ayman Zawahiri who will eventually become the leader, today’s leader, of Al Qaeda. Right. And then how that became the well, the Muslim Brotherhood and how that all led to all this fundamentalism that had kind of rose up Right.
Because of Kaptev’s thoughts and And then how Zawahiri and bin Laden met in Peshawar in 9:11. Right. And then how that led to 9:11. And then, today, he’s gonna start with, the creation of ISIS. What does it mean?
Right. What is their plan? What’s really the difference between ISIS and Al Qaeda? Right. And, what are we supposed to think when we hear what’s going on in the news with ISIS?
Yeah. I don’t know about you, but, like, of course, you know, I’m not an insider. But, whenever I see the news and ISIS and what they’re doing Actually, any kind of these terrorist attacks, it just seems senseless to me. But I I’ve just been informed by Trevor that they actually have a plan. Yeah.
And so we’re gonna, Nabil Jabbour is gonna talk about that. Yeah. He mentions a couple names but doesn’t, build on those names. And so, after the show, if you’re thinking when he mentions these, you know, Fuad Hussain and Suri and Nagi, like, what are these guys? What what where do these names go?
We’ll talk about that after the show. So just bear with us. And after you hear the, the show, we’ll we’ll talk a a little bit about the plan of Al Qaeda looking looking at it from actually 911 forward. Right. Don’t get lost in the names.
Yeah. That’s right. Well, enjoy. Alright. This week’s sponsors.
CIU. CIU. CIU educates people from a bib Biblical. Biblical world review. World view.
Real world review. K. C. CIU educates people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. So could you give us an explanation?
Give us ISIS, ISO, IS. What exactly is this group? How did it become what it is today? We only see it happening in the news this year, but I’m guessing there’s a longer story there as to how it came about. The original name is in Arabic.
It’s an acronym, dash, 4 letters, d a, then a letter which is doesn’t exist in the English vocabulary, English alphabet, which is the Hain letter, and then she she s h. These four stand for, an Islamic state in Iraq and Sham or, modern translation, Syria. But the word Sham is an ancient word for, that stands for ancient Syria. That includes Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine. So that’s where we get the law on.
Was called Da’a Shem. So in their Muslim vocabulary, their goal was not just an Islamic state in Iraq and Syria, the Syria we know today, but larger than that. So I heard, for instance, secretary Kerry refer to it as ISIL rather than ISIS, which is more accurate. Islamic State in Iraq and Levant. Levant is that area that included the four countries of Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Palestine.
Later on, they began expanding their vision to see an Islamic State and a restoration of the caliphate. The Islamic State doesn’t have to be geographically connected. For instance, Boko Haram in Nigeria. If one day they decide to join the Islamic State of Iraq and Levant, can declare themselves as members of the Islamic State and submit to Abu Bakr al Baghdadi as the caliph. And and some groups have already begun doing this.
Correct? I mean, even in Indonesia and Africa. So but provided there is territory, there is land that occupy and they control. So was this the goal in Afghanistan with Al Qaeda, with Ayman al Zawahiri in Bin Laden? Were they hoping for the Islamic State to begin there in Afghanistan?
And then with the US invasion, that plan was thwarted. And then, you know, unwittingly, the invasion of Iraq set up a new place. Yeah. That’s right. So how did they come to be?
Who is this, Baghdadi? How did he come to be? What what happened between the US killing, Zarqawi? I believe it was 2,006 to 2014 with ISIL ISIS that we see in the news today. If we go back a little bit in history, Muslims after the death of Mohammed in 632, they had caliphs.
The caliph in those days had tremendous deal of power. They were the equivalent of a pope and an emperor in one person. And over the centuries, they had they existed in several countries where the the capital was. Finally, it ended up in Istanbul in Turkey, and it lasted there for a few centuries. In 1924, the last caliph, Sultan Abdul Majid II, was banished by Kamal Ataturk when Kamal Ataturk declared Turkey a secular republic.
Since then, the Vatican they don’t call it Vatican. I’m calling it the Vatican of Islam has been vacant. So there has been a longing in the hearts of many of many Muslims, especially the fundamentalists. When will we ever have a man who will unite all Muslims around the world under his leadership as the caliph where the caliphate is is restored. So Abu Bakr al Baghdadi declared himself as caliph Ibrahim, which is not his real name.
And, so he he’s now the caliph of the Islamic State. Now Islamic is very clear that it is Islamic, but many Muslims do not see it representing true Islam. They see it as a heretical understanding of Islam. Secondly, state. How much is it a state?
I’ve been reading that, they have police. They have security. They are trying to become a state, but with guerrilla warfare approach and being a state, how do these 2 mesh? Strategically, they withdraw from land occupied if it serves a purpose. How can they rule?
How can they govern? This is a test to how far they can go and how long they can last. So where did they come from? It seems like they just popped up out of nowhere, but I’m I mean, I suspect, I mean, I’ve even read reports about this particular leader, Baghdadi, being imprisoned at at camp, Bukha in, in the Iraq war with the invasion. So how is is there a connection between the the Baathists that were imprisoned, the radicals that were imprisoned in the creation of ISIS?
Yeah. For years in teaching at seminaries, I told my students about 3 men, Abu Musa’ab Asuri, Abu Bakr Najee, and Fuad Hussain. And I would tell my students you’ve never heard of these names. One of those days, these names are going to be very famous. Recently, I found out that Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, the leader of ISIL or the Islamic State, is a product of the works of these 3 men.
What these 3 men have written as a strategy for the future of Al Qaeda, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi adopted. So ISIL is the result of these three men, plus Syed Qutb applied. What I mean by it, the teachings of Syed Qutb put into practice. He didn’t do them. He wrote about jihad in a militant approach, but he didn’t practice it himself.
But Abu Bakr al Baghdadi is practicing what Kut brought about. Furthermore, Zarqawi at one time mentored Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, and Zarqawi was the warrior in representing Iraq, and he is responsible for the death of so many in Iraq and for igniting sectarianism in that country. Yeah. I remember reading an article, where Zawahiri really was wanting to fight, the jihad against these Muslim governments, and Zarqawi was wanting to fight against the Shiites because he felt like he could bring in a larger group of people if there was the sectarian violence going on. And so Zarqawi being this, you know, wicked, you know, like we mentioned earlier, bloodthirsty, sort of leader.
I don’t know that it almost seems like whenever one wicked person dies, another one is raised up, and sometimes it’s even worse than the one before. That’s true. Because violence escalates. So we have these these people, they’ve spent time in prison. There’s the Abu Ghareeb.
Is there any relation there with what’s happening today? Immediately after the Iraq war, many people were arrested and put in prison. Most of them were the loyalists of, Saddam Hussein and belonged to the Ba’ath party of Iraq. The Abu Ghraib prison scandal was a turning point. Any one of us can go to the Internet and just Google Abu Ghraib, and the photos we see are really shocking.
Mhmm. As a result of that scandal, they started quickly looking at the multitudes of people that were imprisoned, Iraqis imprisoned. And they found that 80% of them were innocent, and they got released. So imagine somebody leaving prison after being there for a year or 2 and being tortured by Americans and coming and telling the extended family how he was treated, stripped naked, tortured, etcetera. How would these people view Americans after that experience?
So the the Iraq war, Americans thought we will be received, with rejoicing and the flowers and you know, because we came to liberate them from the dictator. But after the Abu Ghraib scandal and the photos that were released, people saw a different face of America, and the hatred and prejudice against Americans became a tool to recruit more and more people. Now in ISIL, a good percentage of the people in ISIL are ex military people in the Saddam Hussein army. So they are qualified and equipped and trained. They know how to drive tanks.
Most probably, there are pilots. If they can capture airplanes, fighters, they can use them. And so, ISIL is the product of all these factors. Sayed Khotb, Suri, Abu Bakr Najee, Fuad Hussein, and all these people together, plus Zarqawi, brought ISIL into existence. And a a social issue, a political issue, it’s almost like Nabilah just seems like it was the perfect storm.
You have the the ideology. You have the, political fallout. You have a vacuum of power, and ISIL just fills it. That’s right. That’s right.
And, the the war in Iraq empowered the Shiites in Iraq. They were treated as a minority because Saddam Hussein was a Sunni, and he treated them as second class. After the American invasion, the picture was reversed where the Shia ice took power, and Nuri al Maliki abused power and, you know, kind of treated the Sunnis as second class citizens. So these Sunnis are fed up with the Shiites, and when the ISIL movement started, they were ready to welcome them and cooperate with them. And so this is why we’re seeing so many Muslims coming from all over the world to participate.
Yeah. And Sunnis are about 90% of the Muslim world, while Shiites is a minority, maybe about 9%. They are mostly in Iran, in Iraq, a little bit in Bahrain, and in Lebanon. While the rest of the Muslim world are Sunnis. And so they are coming to help their brothers their their Sunni brothers against the Shiites, whom they perceive now as a heretical kind of Islam.
You know, people assume that, the situation against dismantling and destroying ISIL, as the president declared, is not an easy goal, and it cannot be accomplished in few years. Perhaps containment is more accurate description of what we can aspire to in the near future, and the near future could be several years. So, dismantling and destroying could take 20 or some people say even 50 years. The the challenge is difficult in with ISIL for various reasons. For instance, Iran is a Shiite country.
The biggest winner as a result of the Iraq war was Iran. And got empowered. And Iraq and Iran have a history. Yeah. And so, nowadays, it’s an interesting situation.
Iran perceives ISIL as the enemy, and America perceives ISIL as the enemy. So American airplanes are hitting ISIL, and Iranian airplanes are hitting ISIL, but in different areas so that there will not be a direct clash. So this is one of the ironies of of of the war in against ISIS. The enemy of my enemy has become my my friend in some way. That’s right.
Then you come to the issue of Turkey. Turkey is a key player. But for years, Turkey has been allowing recruits to fly to Turkey and cross the border to Syria and join ISIL. America is trying to pressure Turkey to do the right thing and close its borders and not allow these terrorists to join But ISIL is, Turkey is putting conditions of the, regarding their willingness to cooperate with the United States and its allies. They want the war to be against Bashar al Assad, the Syrian president.
Mhmm. While the Syrian president is the enemy of ISIL. So why should you weaken Bashar al Assad at this time, and ISIL takes fills in the gaps where the Syrian army gets defeated? So it is extremely complicated situation regarding Syria and Iraq. I think, Nabeel, what I find so interesting is that who used to be our enemy is now our ally, who might at one point become our enemy again.
And when you look at the Middle East and you look at the history, since the very drawing of the borders, it’s just been been a mess. Yeah. And do you, at some point, do you foresee redrawing of borders in the Middle East to give Shiite countries and, you know, Kurdish country, the Pashtun in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I mean, a lot of this stuff that’s happening, it seems to be very much related to, I don’t wanna sound ignorant here, but people not thinking through when they drew certain borders and not recognizing the sectarian violence. And so do you foresee any redrawing of borders coming into the future?
End up like that sometime in the future. But for instance, take Kurdistan. The Kurds used to be in land which currently are parts of Syria, Iraq, Turkey, and Iran. All four countries were against these Kurds establishing a state carved from these 4 different countries. Now, with the 1991 Iraq War the Gulf War the No Fly Zone was established and Kurds started gaining power and started having the dream of becoming a Kurdistan.
Now they are actually, an independent region in Iraq, which is called Kurdistan, With Syria, parts of it, is is becoming also part of Kurdistan. Turkey is worried. What if the Kurds in Turkey rebel against Turkey? Iran is worried. What if they rebel against Iran?
So this adds another factor to the complications. I I guess what I’m getting from our our conversation today is that it’s much more complicated than just religion. It’s much more than than a theological issue. Yeah. There’s political things going on.
There are social issues. This is this is a complex complex. And remember, Kurds are Muslims. So when you think of the Kurds fighting ISIL in Syria, so, you know, Muslims fighting fellow Muslims with different kind of understanding of what Islam is and who is a real Muslim. I think one of the big things which is happening these days is Muslims are going through an identity crisis of who is a real Muslim.
And who’s gonna get to be the one who defines that? Yeah. For instance, in Egypt nowadays, I heard that our, out of 80,000,000 people, there might be about 5,000,000 atheists. Wow. So people are getting tired Yeah.
Of Islam. They see that kind of Islam, and they say we don’t want to become. Like, if Islam is what ISIL claims Islam to be, I do not want to be a Muslim. Yet, at the same time, this is a window of opportunity When people dare to think and dare to doubt, they could be open to the gospel. The Muslim world is more ready than ever for the gospel because of what they are going through regarding an identity crisis.
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That was Nabil Jabbour, with an interview with Trevor. And, again, we would talked about, ISIS in a nutshell. I hope you I hope you guys liked it. Yeah. Howard, what did you think ISIS in a nutshell?
I mean, I’m just kinda going along with, this ride just piecing everything together just kinda like, oh, okay. So that’s where they came from. This is how it kinda because to be honest, when I watch the news or hear the news, I get lost in people’s names and then I just kinda check out. I’m like, oh, that’s that’s tragic. I just kinda wanna know what they did.
But now this is kind of explaining how it got formed, what what they’re thinking, how things are, shaping up. And, and and you’re about to share what their plan is, I guess. Yeah. And, you know, some of this is obviously speculation. We, the the, you know, a lot of this comes from Muslim writers that claim to work with Al Qaeda and have sort of an idea and inside track on what Al Qaeda is up to.
And it’s really a little bit eerie when you look at what they were writing back in 2005, 2004 after the attack on 911 Right. And what’s actually happened since then in the last decade. Wait. So, they’ve been moving along? Oh, yeah.
They’ve been accomplishing goals? Yeah. Well, you know, the idea some I think some members of Al Qaeda were a little bit, disappointed with 911. What do you mean? They didn’t feel like they were ready to do something of that that level of significance that would draw the US out.
You remember how, Doctor. Jabbour was talking about Al Qaeda really wanted to overextend the United States and its military campaigns. Yeah. And that’s why they had the attack on the US coal. And 911 was to draw them out.
Well, some of Al Qaeda’s inner core leadership didn’t agree about drawing them into Afghanistan because they felt like Afghanistan was going to become the new, Islamic State. You know, it’s kinda like Okay. Let’s think about it from a biblical perspective when we think about Abraham. You know, he makes a promise. God makes a promise to Abraham that He’s gonna make him into a great nation.
And we know from our studies that, in order to be a nation, you need a couple of things. Right. You need people, you need land. Right. A law.
Yeah, law. Right. You need leadership, all of these different things. And so, the Islamic State took a similar approach in that in order to form this Islamic State, this empire with a new caliph, which would eventually be the leader, they needed people, which they had, groups of people coming to Afghanistan. And more growing every day.
Right. Yeah. But they needed land. And so, what the Taliban provided for them in Afghanistan was a certain level of safe haven for operation. And that’s what they had been searching for, all throughout the nineties.
And that’s why, you know, Zawahiri was arrested in Dagestan because you have these sort of failed states that they continue to go into. They’ve been in, you know, they’ve been in North Africa. They’ve been in Yemen. They’ve been in Afghanistan. They’ve been in Pakistan.
And they’re always looking for failed states where they can have their own land to launch this sort of movement. Wait, wait, wait. So, failed states meaning, like, states that they can come in and take over? Exactly. Where there’s like a failed government, a disenfranchised people, a very big sense of injustice, and they can offer something.
And so, they don’t come in and just rule with an iron fist. They actually will come in and begin offering, money, provision, care, and they do all this typically through the mosque. And so, the same thing that’s why the Taliban, when they came into Kabul originally, when they came in, it was sort of like, Oh, these guys are great. They’ve freed us from the mujahideen. Right.
Against injustice. Right. They did a lot of good things like that in the beginning. And then, when you have power, that absolute power that corrupts absolutely, then the people are like, Wait a second. These guys aren’t the people we thought they were.
And so, the Taliban was eventually disliked by the people. Well, Al Qaeda has a similar, track record? Yes. So they wanna go in. They wanna state.
They they attack on 911, and then, the US invades and dismantles the Taliban, and now they have no state to work from. And so some people, particularly this guy Suri that he mentions, felt like that was too, you know, preemptive. Like, they shouldn’t have done that yet. They weren’t ready for that sort of level of attack. Interesting.
So they go in and they attack and it does do what they wanted it to do, but they didn’t feel like they’re ready on the back end. Well, I think they were hoping that they would have to attack multiple places at one time Uh-huh. And overextend the army. But when they came in and just quickly dismantled the Taliban, they they felt like, well, there goes our state that we were working from. Interesting.
But, of course, Aiman Zawahiri, the leader of Al Qaeda, says, no. This is exactly what we wanted. So there’s a little bit of a division going on in Al Qaeda about how this thing went. And so, what was the plan after that? Okay, so then, the other guy that he mentions is, Fuad Hussein, who, is supposed to be a radical Jordanian.
He was good friends with Zarqawi. And Zarqawi is also Also Jordanian. Right. That’s right. I just found that out.
Oh, good. Yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah. He’s he’s he’s from, southern, Zarka, in Jordan. That’s how he gets Zarkaoui.
Anyway, he’s Jordanian, and, dark how we is the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq. Mhmm. Now, I’m on Zawahiri and dark how we never really get along that well. Oh because Zarqawi feels like we shouldn’t be attacking the US. We shouldn’t be fighting with the US.
We should be fighting against secular Muslim governments, particularly Muslim governments that are Shiite. Right. Because if we can draw the sectarian violence, that’s when we’ll begin to draw Muslims from all over the world. The Sunnis against the Shiites. So, he has this kind of apocalyptic eschatological, you know, war in his mind.
And Zarqawi and, Zawahiri just had 2 very different approaches. Zarqawi wanted to fight the Shiites. Zarkawi felt like it was time to fight against the west, and that’s where those 2 kind of they clash. But but Zarkawi was really, really successful. Yeah.
Yeah. No. He was. He but he was brutal. Even with the beheading of Nicholas Berg in the 1st Iraq War, he was condemned immediately by Zawahiri for being too brutal.
Really? Yeah. So, he didn’t Zawahiri didn’t like this idea of the sectarian violence. I don’t think he saw it as being too effective that it would really, draw the sympathy from the Muslim community. He thought the better enemy would be the West.
Right. So, how we thought the better enemy would be fellow Muslims that are Shi’ites that we don’t even consider Muslim. Yeah, they called them heretical. That’s what, Jabbour said. Right.
They don’t even consider the Shiites Muslim. And you know what? Honestly, I think Zarqawi was right. Wait. Wait.
Wait. Wait. Why? Well, because with the Islamic State in Iraq, they’re drawing way more, favorability and attention. Because of the sectarian violence.
Right. But doesn’t it seem like the the house of Islam, so called, doesn’t it seem like it’s more divided and more, you know, fractured or No. No. Not when you think about Sunni and Shia because Sunni and Shia is not the house. They don’t the Sunnis don’t look at Shia as part of the house.
I mean, that that division happens a long time ago with the the divisions between the Sunni and Shia, and it’s gotten to the point now where the Sunnis don’t consider the Shia Muslim. Okay. But what do the Shiites do enough to cause such, hatred? Because, like like, from what Jabur was saying that that these, Sunnis are are, are are coming in to ISIS to battle against the Shiites. There’s not a lot of Shiites.
They’re they’re they’re a minority group. Yeah. 10 10%. Right. Yeah.
So, like, what did they do that was bad enough to all these Sunnis to say, yeah, let’s take up arms against these guys and Well, if you think about the Shiites, like after the US I think Jabbour mentioned this after the US invasion of Iraq and then the leader goes from Saddam Hussein to, a Shiite leader, Maliki. And then, all of a sudden, the Shiites have power and they don’t build bridges. Right. Because Saddam as soon as Saddam Hussein, he kinda treated, treated, the the Shiites as a secondary, like, a second class citizen. Right.
And now they’re in power. Power, they did the same thing to the Sunnis. Except that they’re a small smaller group. Well, what ends up happening is that the the Sunnis are mostly, I think he mentioned this too, released from prison and they form a pretty powerful coalition to go and take back control of the government. And their enemy is the Shiite government.
And so, that’s what draws so many people from all over the world is they’re fighting against the Shiites and they’re also fighting against Assad in Syria. And so, you have this war let me just read Fuad Hussain’s, perspective on this because I mentioned him in the beginning and I haven’t gotten there. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Gotten there.
So the the master plan, really outlined by Fuad Hussain in 2005. He produces what’s called, a book called The 2nd Generation of Al Qaeda. Okay. And it’s a biography kind of of Zarqawi, his movement, And that’s where he starts to talk about the master plan of Al Qaeda and what they’re gonna do. And so let’s just look at what he says.
He says that the initial stage is called the eye opening. The open the eye. No. The awakening. That’s stage 1.
And the awakening is really the striking on September 11th that’s going to, strike the head of the serpent, America, essentially. And then American troops will, attack. Right. Retaliate. And he’s hoping, He says in the plan that the one of the hopes is to draw America into, Baghdad, which is part 2, the second stage of the master plan.
He says that? Well, this is after. And so, I mean, obviously, this is 2,005. Oh, so he knows? Right.
But he says that This is happening. This is a part of the plan. Okay. The end the end of the end of stage 1 is when the US goes and invades, Baghdad. When soon as they enter Baghdad, he says, now we’re in stage 2.
The second stage is called the eye opening, and that will last until around 2006. He says, Iraq will become the recruiting ground for young men eager to attack America. Wow. And and this is, again, like Jabbour said, was connected with Israel, like, how US became the enemy. Right.
Right. Right. Right. Right. Okay.
Even more so than Israel. Right. And he says that electronic jihad and the Internet will propagate Al Qaeda’s ideas. Now, that’s what I find fascinating because he’s saying this back in 2005. And the biggest thing that we saw this weekend on television was that the recruitment of all of these people, these radicals ideal, radical Islamists in France and, you know, Belgium and Denmark and UK and all over is all happening online.
And that was in 2005, you said? Yeah. He says that there’s gonna be, an electronic jihad. And he says also with that, they’re going to begin to propagate Al Qaeda’s ideas online and that Muslims will be pressed to donate funds through online donation and giving. And we’re seeing all this now.
Wow. I never even thought about that. Like, how that made could make such an impact financially. Oh, huge. Huge.
The 3rd stage is called, he calls the arising and standing up. And that’s gonna last from 2,007 to 10. Al Qaeda will focus on Syria and Turkey. Oh my gosh. Right?
Okay. And then Wait. Wait. Wait. Time out.
Time out. This is might be ignorant on my part. But what’s happening in Turkey? I know the US is pressuring them to close the borders, but they’re not closing the borders. Right?
And so all all these tariffs are going from Turkey, but what is what else does it have to do with anything? Well, I think you have to realize that what he’s saying is that it’s gonna start in Iraq Uh-huh. Spill over into Syria and then over into Turkey. And this is the beginnings of this Islamic state. Right.
This is the land taking. Yeah. Okay. So this was 10 years ago that he was talking about. Right.
But he’s the strategy. So Turkey His timeline is 2,007 to 2,010. Right. So he’s a little bit off and and they’ve not been quite as successful. But Turkey is not closing the border so that says a lot still.
Right. And Turkey I don’t think Turkey would say that they’re out of, out of trouble with any of this. Yeah. Makes sense. And so, 2,007, 2010 focus on Syria and Turkey and then, begin directly to confront Israel in order to gain more credibility with the Muslim population.
So, those that didn’t join in with the sectarian violence against the Shiites, once there’s some, confrontation with Israel, then we’ll get sympathy from the rest of the Muslim world, we’ll begin to recruit even more, essentially. Right. And that’s really interesting about what, Nabil Jabbour says, was talking about how there was a chance at peace. Yeah. With, with Middle East and and Israel, but then it wasn’t taken.
Yeah. That’s that’s that’s crazy. And so this now becomes part of his plan, to, the the enemy thing where, like, you know, an enemy your enemy, you know oh, my enemy of my enemy. What is it? What Yeah.
The enemy of my enemy is my best friend. Apparently, I don’t have any enemies, so I don’t have to ever say this thing. But, you know, but yeah. Me once. Yeah.
But the point is, like, that’s that’s brilliant. You you ever notice on the media that these guys just don’t seem, they’re not portrayed as intelligent, they’re just kind of, you know, animals? It’s just, you know, like They’re not violent anything through. Right. But, apparently, these guys have a plan and that’s actually, I think, more frightening.
Yeah. No. I I would say that the leadership does have a plan. They are well backed financially. They are well backed, militarily.
They are well backed and trained, and they have a radical ideology that they can back up theologically. So, I mean, in that sense, there’s no, fanaticism, you know, just this kind of Yeah, it’s, it’s well thought through. Right. It’s the vast majority of people following those people that I would say I don’t think you could say the same thing of. Yeah.
But they don’t necessarily need to be the intelligent ones, I guess, really. They just need to be the ones that are doing the atrocities or doing the They just need to buy in. Yeah. Okay. So, a Hold on.
We got another stage. In the 4th stage I’ll save my question. Okay. So the 4th stage, this will last until 2,013. Al Qaeda is to bring about the demise of Arab governments.
And so I would assume that includes North Africa, Egypt. And so you almost wonder with a lot of the things that were happening back with the Arab spring if there, you know, there’s so much going on that there’s not the ability to keep the consistent timeline but I think there’s already some movements to do that destabilize Arab governments, get the people really frustrated, and then have these movements happening all throughout the Arab world. And so, you have things happening like with Boko Haram in Syria. You have things happening with all of these groups across the Middle East. Yeah.
Something you said to me that surprised me today was, that, was it Al Qaeda or ISIS was, actually going after Boko Haram to to try to recruit them to join? Yeah. I had this really interesting discussion with a guy from Afghanistan. And I was asking him about his home village and he said, you know, it’s largely under the control of the Taliban and they’re pretty ruthless. And he said, but he just had spoken with his cousin here recently.
And he said, there are new people here and they’re Arab and they say that they are with ISIS. Isn’t that crazy? With the Taliban. Yeah. That they are trying to there are Arabs coming in and trying to take over the Taliban and basically say, hey, we’re we’re the new it’s it’s it’s kinda like, mafia.
Yeah. You know, like turf wars. Right. And the and the the new guys. And they work together at in some point because it doesn’t sound like he wasn’t saying they went to battle.
They went to war with each other, just kinda came in and started infiltrating and And saying that we’re the new we’re the new mafia in town, basically. Wow. So, anyway, this is kinda the the way that it goes. And that’s why you have groups in Indonesia saying, hey, we’re with ISIS. You have groups in Africa saying, hey, we’re with ISIS.
Right. And then these weird terrorist attacks across, you know, the western world and some of them say they’re with ISIS. That’s right. Even in France, one guy says, I’m with ISIS. The other guy says, oh, no.
I’m with the Al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula. And so there is a certain level of, what are the definitions for? I would say one of the definitions of a movement is when it grows beyond its original people. Oh, right. And that’s So it doesn’t have to be intentional start to claim.
I think that’s what concerns me more than anything is there is a certain level of a movement happening here that isn’t necessarily tied to any one particular leadership group, but the ideology that ties them all together, you know, is a hatred towards the West, the injustice, of Israel and a desire to see sort of an Islamic state that will conquer and flourish this wonderful unique chronic generation that existed in the 7th century that kind of propagates all of this. Right. They don’t they don’t even know who they’re following, but they know that, you know, who they’re against. They might not know who they’re for, but they know who they’re against. Right.
So, anyway. Alright. Keep going. 4th stage. What does he say?
Middle East and this was interesting. Meanwhile, attacks against the Middle East and the petroleum industry will continue which is so interesting because look at the price of gas right now and look at the petroleum control in Iraq with ISIS. America’s power will deteriorate through constant, expansion of its circle of confrontation so it’s hoping to draw the US out even further which, thankfully, we’re not involved in anything, but who knows? By then, they’re gonna launch electronic attacks to undermine the US economy. Now, some people are thinking, come on.
This is, like, conspiracy theory. But it is something to be said that ISIS was able to hack in to some of the US department. What was it? The Twitter feed of, was it the White House this past weekend and they put in ISIS? Do you did you see that?
No, I didn’t. Alright. Let let me double check on that before I say. But they they were able to infiltrate something within the government that was it should have been concerning to people. I think it probably was concerning to most people but they’ll promote the idea of using gold as the international medium of exchange and collapse the dollar which some people, at least from the Muslim world’s perspective and also the Russians and the Iranians are propagating this, is that that’s why the U.
- Got involved in Iraq and with the destruction and killing of Gaddafi because they were trying to promote the use of gold for the purchase of oil rather than the dollar. But that’s one of the strategies to collapse the dollar. Okay. Then in the final stage, the 5th stage, this stage is the West, will, the international balance is gonna change.
Al Qaeda and the Islamist movement will attract powerful new economic allies such as China. Europe will fall into disunity and then it will come to the final stage of total confrontation by 2020. The world will realize the, real meaning of terrorism and there will be a definitive victory, that would have been achieved by Al Qaeda and all of its affiliates. And so, this kind of total confrontation, that’s the apocalyptic sort of, you know, world war in the world. Right.
But the but I guess the question is, is this ISIS or is this Al Qaeda? Is it or are they because I know that Al Qaeda just kinda just tried to disband, ISIS at one point. But then are they are they working together again, or is this just kind of like we just lump them all together? I have not heard anything lately from Zawahiri talking about the, you know, the confrontations that happened between Al Qaeda and ISIS. I haven’t heard anything here lately.
Mhmm. So who who knows? It’s kind of out. Yeah. It’s kind of one of those might makes right.
Like, it doesn’t seem like Al Qaeda, like Zawahiri, really has a handle on what’s happening. It seems like the influence of ISIS in, Iraq is much more significant than Zawahiri’s. And I say that because they actually have land. Yeah. Because now they they they’re they’re a force to be reckoned with.
Yeah. They have land. They have military training. They have weapons. They have money.
They have oil. Yeah. So And it’s some of the most bizarre stuff going on. Like, they’re they’re selling oil to, you know, groups like Assad, who they’re actually against. There’s so many bizarre things happening Yeah.
That it’s almost Well, well, you’re like, what? What? Well, Nabil Jabbour was talking about how Iran was attacking and we’re attacking, you know, so they become kind of allies in this weird, you know, battle. It’s really interesting. Okay.
So this is the question. Alright? And maybe this will be the last question because it’ll be such a great question. Yeah. But I’ve been I’ve been thinking about it.
I’ve been thinking about it for a while now. So formulate it well. If ISIS or Al Qaeda, whoever, if they get to this point of, well, a certain point. I don’t know what point that would be. But they legitimately have a lot of power.
They’re rewriting, the maps, the government, the government control of, of the Middle East and maybe Afghanistan, Pakistan, maybe these these major Muslim countries. Do they will they be able to have enough power to say what goes with the rest of the world, Muslim world? Will Baghdadi become the caliphate? Like, is that possible by just taking so much control? You know, right now, it’s Iraq and, in Syria.
But what if it does happen to Turkey? What if what if, you know, like Iran falls somehow or some of these other nations, you know, and then the Boko Haram, right, in Africa? What if there’s other groups like that become recruited? Is there a certain point where Baghdadi could actually become the Muslim caliphate, the the pope of Islam, basically? Is that possible?
Because right now, everyone’s like, no way. This is not happening. We don’t agree. You know? But if they continue to grow like this, is that possible?
I don’t I don’t think so. And and here’s why. People will try to make the case that Islam can be unified if they just go backwards to the 7th, 8th century unique Quranic generation that existed at the time of the prophet Mohammed. And then, the unique, uniquely guided caliphs that came after these 4 these 4 caliphs, that came after Mohammed. Right.
Because they would say that those 4 caliphs this is the the fundamentalist now they’re gonna argue that those 4 caliphs were legislating everything by God. They were operating under the sharia. They were operating under the banner of Islam, not under the banner of any nationalistic identity, not under the banner of an ethnic identity. And they have this really rose colored lens at which they view this, unique Koranic generation. Okay.
Then it’s just not true. That unique Koranic generation never existed. From the very beginnings of Islam, you have assassinations of of leaders, including some from those those 4 original caliphs. Oh, okay. And you have groups already splintering and deciding what is Islam supposed to look like.
And you have the, you know, the Umayyads and the Abbasids, these two large dynasties that form and they start to attack one another. And so, I don’t think that there is any, system that’s built upon an ideology whether it be Islam or a political ideology or you name it, whether it’s democracy, communism, anything, you know, Pax Romana, look at history. Yeah. And I think that if there’s one particular ideology that you think is going to unify the world politically, then you just you don’t know history. So you’re just saying that they’re so spread out that it’s it’s it’s gonna be impossible?
Not not not not geographically, but, you know, just ideologically. Just the way everyone thinks their even their theology. And they’re people. They’re people. Mhmm.
They’re not gonna be able to pull this together. I mean, think about us as the church filled with the Holy Spirit Right. Trying to pull it all together, working with, you know, the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church and the evangelical church. There’s so many tribes, you know, especially of thinking and and trying to unify that all under one unified front and we’re we’re we’re indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. Right.
And that’s still not happening. Yeah. Yeah. So, why would we assume that there’s gonna come a time where all of these, you know, radical Muslims that what time has shown is that as they get power and they get more power, they get more corrupt and they get more wicked and then eventually They’re overthrown. They’re overthrown most likely by their own people.
Yeah. And that’s why, you know, you have ISIS going in and fighting against Al Qaeda in Syria. And Al Qaeda in Syria is like, wait a second. Yeah. Hold on.
Thought we were on the same team. You know what I mean? Refer to the master plan. So, I don’t Yeah. Did you guys not get the handbook?
Yeah. So, I don’t I don’t think that it’s something that is realistic. Now, there is some legitimate concern though with areas like Israel because there is nuclear weapons, Pakistan with, groups like the Taliban and and more radical groups within Pakistan that want, you know, that would be my biggest concern is that they have access to nuclear weapons. Not so much that there’s a real legitimacy to a new Islamic empire me. I don’t see it.
I just don’t see it happening. But I do see that individuals will continue to do things and then small groups will continue to gain power and do things. And I think when history looks back on this, they’re gonna see that the 3rd World War started right after the 2nd World War. Well, that’s not very comforting. Thank you, Trevor.
Well, I’m just saying. I really think that’s the way the historians will look at it. I think they’re gonna look at the drawing of nation states after World War 2 and the removal of, colonialization and, you know, they’re gonna look at this and say that the the Third World War was really Yeah, these are the factors leading up to Right. And 9/11 will be a turning point. The invasion of Iraq will be a turning point.
The establishment of Israel, 19 48 will be a turning point. So, you look at all of these turning points between establishment of the Muslim Brotherhood, establishment of Israel, Syed Qutb and his book Milestones, the invasion of Russians into Afghanistan, the overthrow of the Russians, and then the Mujahideen- With the help, with the help of the U. S. Right, and then the Mujahideen- Right, bin Laden. And the formulation of Al Qaeda with Bin Laden- Right.
And then the attacks in North Africa and the embassies in Africa and the U. S. Coal, and you look at all of that together which we need to put together a timeline you look at all of that together, and I think any historian looking back a 100 years from now is gonna say, Yeah, the 3rd war really started right after the end of the 2nd World War with the drawing of nation states, and some people were just not okay with the way that happened. Yeah. And they’ve been fighting this stuff.
More, more than not okay, right, because of bloodshed and and all that stuff is happening because of that. Right. And so, I think what we what we end with is exactly with what Nabil Jabbour ended with. That the Muslim world is in an identity crisis. And we need there there’s there’s an opening right now that the Muslim world has never seen before and that’s where Christ needs to come in.
And so, we need to not fall prey to the temptation of the evil one, to not love the Muslims with the the love of Jesus. Like, that’s what we have to we have to respond in love and with the gospel. Right. Because with this, there becomes a lot of opportunity, just like Namil Jibor was talking about. There’s that that statistic about the atheists and he said Egypt, right?
Was that correct? Yeah. I think it was Egypt. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
5,000 atheists, which is, you know, you’re talking about Egypt. Yeah. You know, that’s that’s pretty crazy, which means it doesn’t even say that for, the the the part about being atheist, that that doesn’t bother me so much as, I’m thinking about all those people that are on the fence. Right. You know?
Because if if 5,000 are actually atheist, then that means there’s a lot more that are on the fence. Right. And that’s kind of where, I think we come in as Christians. Mhmm. And change the face of that nation, change the face of, you know, the Muslim world now, as we come into contact with more and more Muslims that are on the fence?
Yeah. I think we can’t lose sight of the fact that God uses the wrath of man to praise him and that he is the one who can turn the heart of a king as the streams of water. I mean, we cannot lose the fact that God is involved in all of this somehow. We can’t lose sight of that. If we do, then we’ll fall into deep, you know, depression and conspiracy theories and who knows what else.
And fear. You know? Because I kinda had that sense when you’re like, the next world war, I’m like, I don’t want that. You know? I I I just kinda had this, you know, sense of fear that was gonna come over, but then just being reminded, like, hey.
Let’s not let’s not forget what our what we’re called to do. Even in the midst, doesn’t matter what’s happening. Whatever circumstances, we’re called to, to be salt and light, right, to to share the gospel, to, you know, to to change our circumstances through the Holy Spirit, through the work of Christ. Yeah. And called to pray.
Yes. Yeah. So if you’re listening to us, Don’t be discouraged. Don’t be, yeah, don’t be discouraged. Be remember, that, that God has a plan.
Yeah. Be encouraged that, I mean, just yesterday, I was talking with a guy from Pakistan and just telling him, about Jesus and just to see his face and his excitement about the gospel. There are so many Muslims out there that are open to the gospel right now. Yeah. Don’t be discouraged.
Tell people about Jesus. So the show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors. And this week’s sponsors are Zwammer Center. Zwammer Center. Zwammer Center.
Welles Center. Zwamer Center. And what does the Zwamer Center do? Talks about lessons and tells them on the computer that we love you. Very nice.
The Wehmer Center equips the church to reach Muslims. The Swimmer Center has been educating people about reaching Muslims before it was cool. So, Trevor, this weekend, your wife went out of town and you recorded 12 hours? Yeah. I went out Of interviews?
Yeah. I went out into neighborhoods looking for, Muslims. Wait, wait, wait. I don’t even know what that means. So I took the bus and, Wait, the city bus?
Yeah. I took the bus. That’s true. My wife had the car. Uh-huh.
Took the bus, went to an apartment complex, and literally walked around until I saw a Muslim. And I know that’s totally profiling, like, Well, how do you know what a Muslim looks like? I just know, okay? And so, I see a guy walking and I just shout, like, ‘slam alaikum.’ And he replies, ‘walaikum, salaam.’ And I walk over and I was like, You shouted at him? Okay.
I shouted at him, you know, like, Hey. But, yeah, hey, okay, that’s better. Peace. Peace. And then, what did he say?
He said, Do we know each other? And I said, No. And I said, I just I thought you were Muslim. And he said, I am, and I’m new here. And I said, Well, welcome.
I said, I’m so glad you’re here. And he said, Oh, come to my house. I want you to meet my family. And so, I spent the next 6 hours with that guy. Get out of here.
No, I kid you not. Wait, wait, wait. I don’t know you. You’re, he says he’s new here, and he says, Welcome. I want you to meet my family.
Yeah. So I go meet his wife, meet his kids, and hang out for about 6 hours and eat some really good food. It’s so funny because, know, I told them my wife and kids are out of town, and he was like, oh, well, you have to stay for dinner, of course. You know? Oh, yeah.
Because you’re not gonna get fed. That’s right. Right. So I stayed there. We’re gonna feed you.
I stayed there till, like, 10 o’clock at night. Then I woke up the next morning, went back, and then found another family and hung out with them. Did you shout at them too? Yeah. Yeah.
It’s my strategy. Shout hello. Like, who’s this white guy? If you only had one strategy for Muslim evangelism, what would it be? Shout hello.
Look somebody right in the eye and say hi. Yeah. You know, something else that you just said. You said welcome. But it’s kinda interesting.
Like, you’re coming on his turf where he lives, and Americans probably would never think about this, but he’s just like, oh, well, he’s an American, and he’s saying welcome. That’s pretty neat. Yeah. Okay. So you went to another interview.
Or we we should we should say that loosely because you were just shouting at people that you just saw. And he said, Hi? And then what? What happened? Like No, just, well, the one guy, of course, says, yeah.
I’m going over to my friend’s house. I said, oh, great. Can I come? And he said, sure. You should meet him too.
So I go over. We meet his friend. And then, I asked his friend just to tell me a little bit about what was it like to, come to America because he had been here a while. Oh, okay. And, he shared a story with me.
And, it was a really powerful story, just very much a classic immigrant story of struggling for the American dream. And he’s he’s getting there. And it’s it’s pretty amazing. And, afterwards, I said, Well, I’ve gotta run. I said, I’ll come back another time.
We’ll have, you know, tea. I think I drink so much tea this week and I feel I still feel jittery. You’re super caffeinated. Yeah. Yeah.
Black tea, man. That’s boat and stuff. Yeah. So as I was as I was getting ready to leave, he said, wait, wait, wait. Don’t leave.
And I was like, okay. I don’t know what I’m supposed to and he said, I’ll be right back. And so I don’t know what he was going to do. But he went to tell his son to manage a store or whatever. And he came back over and said, can we talk some more?
I said, Okay. And he said, I wanna hear your story. And I said, You do? And he said, Okay. Wait.
Wait. What time on? You said you had to leave. Yeah. And he wanted to talk some more.
Right. Okay. And I really did need to go. I was hungry. I had eaten but I didn’t eat enough and I knew I had a long drive.
I was supposed to speak somewhere that night, and I wanted to rest a little bit before I got on the road and drive. And all you’ve been drinking is tea? Okay. Yeah. And juice at that point.
So, you know, I was I said, okay. You wanna hear my story? And he said, yeah. And, so I said, well, where do you want me to start? And I’m not joking.
This is no exaggeration. We had only known each other about 4 hours at this point. And he said, you know, I’ve lived in America a long time. I’ve met a lot of Americans. And he said, but you’re different.
Wow. And I said, why? And he said, it’s something about your face, the way you smile, the way you listen, how you make someone feel comfortable even though you just met them. And he said Wait. Wait.
So, he felt bad from you? Yeah. All of that. Right. And I’m just sitting there listening, you know.
But I accredit that to the Spirit of God. You know me, Howard. It’s not me. No, you’re a good listener. So, anyway, I was I was sitting there.
You have an open face. Yeah, I have a yes face, I guess. So, anyway. I have a yes face. Okay.
Keep going. I said, I said, would you wanna know why I’m that way? And he said, yes. And, I said, well, how much time do you have? It’s a long story.
And he said, as much time as it takes to find out, he said, I suspect there’s something very different about you, and I don’t know where it all begins. And I said, Where do you think it begins? He said, It must begin with your parents. Yeah, that makes sense for a Muslim, you know, the way the Muslims think. Yeah.
And so, of course, I talked about my parents and the good things that I learned from my parents and I I also shared with them a little bit about how my parents divorced. And he kinda looked at me with a look of shock and he said, I don’t understand. Your parents divorced. And I said, Yeah, they did. And he said, Then how?
How did you become Oh, I see. The person that you became? So he thought that that because they divorced, that would have mean That I would be off. Right. Something would be wrong with you.
Okay. And, honestly, you know, part of my coming to know Christ was through my parents’ divorce, really rooting in in my faith, was at that time. So that’s what I turned to. I said, well, it was at that time that I did feel, alone. I did feel like nothing was making sense and that was the time that I began to pray and I began to read the Bible and I began to take serious what it meant to follow after Jesus.
And he said, What what do you mean? And so, I just sat for the next 20 minutes about what does it mean to follow Jesus. Who is Jesus? What has he done in my life? And just shared my testimony for 20 minutes.
And I’m talkin’ at points. He’s just getting misty eyed like, this is an amazing story. Wow. And I’m looking at him and saying, be sure that the the credit goes to God because I’m sure, without Jesus, I would not have become the person that I am today, that it’s only by the grace of God. And he he fully agreed Wow.
And said, We have to talk more. We have to talk more. So Did did you say Esau or Jesus? I just said Jesus. His English was fairly good.
Okay. And he’s not an, Arabic speaker. If, you know, he was an Arabic speaker, I would have probably referred to the Arabic term, but he, he knew English well enough. Right. Well, that’s pretty cool.
So you just yelled at a guy who led you to this guy and you shared his test your yelled at a guy who led me to another guy who led me to another guy. And so, this all happened over a period of Friday for about 6 hours, Saturday for about 10 hours. Sunday is the Sabbath, so I just chilled and watched some football. Yeah. And then Monday to the guy who finally, I was able to sit with.
And the other guys, I was able to share things with and pray with as well, but not to the level I did with the guy on Monday. Something was different about that meeting where he was genuinely more interested in why I was the way that I was. That’s interesting, man. So, yeah. Go to an apartment complex.
Yeah. What a testimony to like how easy it is. No. I I gotta give you one blunder though. Okay.
One time, I was at the public library and, in walks probably 5 or 6 women in the full niqab, which is like the full black dress where all you can see is their eyes. Oh, really? Yeah. In the library here? In Richland County Library.
Okay. And I see them walking down and I mean, every eye in the library was staring at these women. Sure. You know what the headscarf and then a cob is supposed to prevent, it actually drew attention. Yeah, right.
Especially in the States. So, everyone is staring and there’s, one young boy with them and one man. And so, I immediately, as they come down the escalators if you’ve ever been to the children’s library, you know what I’m talking about. I love that library. So they come down the escalator and they’re all walking around looking for books, young girls and moms and everything else.
And, there’s one man and I walk over to him and I say, Assalamu Alaikum. And he goes, I’m sorry. I don’t remember how to say it. I’m not Muslim. And I was like, what?
I said, I don’t understand. And he said, Actually, this is my, sister’s family. My sister is married to a Muslim man so these are all like her family. I’m actually not Muslim. Interesting.
So, he’s just guiding them around. But even then, Assalamu Alaikum still turned into a great conversation with a guy that didn’t know Arabic, that wasn’t Muslim, and so we just talked for a while about, you know, what I did and why I wanted to meet him as a Muslim. So, what was the blunder? I don’t see what the blunder was. I’m just saying it doesn’t always work.
You might shout a slum like somebody they might not be. And then it’s like, I’m I’m from Brooklyn. Yep. That’s why I’m You know what I’m saying? You might say you might say something to somebody assuming they’re Muslim and you’re like, well, I’m sorry.
You’re not actually Muslim. You just kinda look Muslim to me. It was the 7 ladies that They just profiled you. Yeah. Yeah.
I’ve done it with somebody that was Indian, too. They were Hindu and I thought they were Muslim. I thought they were from Pakistan. They were probably speaking Urdu, but they were actually speaking, Urdu but they were Hindu. But they weren’t offended probably, right?
No. They actually knew how to respond but then when they said that I wasn’t, they weren’t Muslim. Yeah. It’s a great question, though, to ask somebody. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Even you go in somewhere and you could say, Are you Hindu, Muslim, Christian? Like, just ask start with that and they’ll say and they’ll kinda laugh. And, oh, I’m Muslim.
You know? Yeah. Of course. Look at me. Yeah.
So, anyway. Anyway, so, that’s it for the show. Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed those stories. And, again, please, we we like this interaction.
So if you have any stories where you’re going around, yelling Shouting at people. Shouting at Muslims, you know, obviously greeting, not yelling at them. Shout the right thing, shout Allahu Akbar or something like shout hello. We wanna hear we wanna hear your story, so write in. And, please, again, reviews help on iTunes.
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Yeah. Right. It it just helps. I I think when people check out our podcast, they’re like, oh, these guys have some reviews. This is actually pretty good.
So, thank you guys so much for listening. Yep. And if you have any comments, write in truth about, comments at truthaboutmuslims.com. Alright. Bye.