How much of our knowledge of Islamic history is centered around the Crusades? How does that affect us today?
RESOURCES:
Peter Riddell –Islam in Context: Past, Present, and Future
Peter Riddell –Islam and the Malay-Indonesian World: Transmission and Responses
Peter Riddell –Angels and Demons: Perspectives and Practice in Diverse Religious Traditions
Peter Riddell & Brent J. Neely –Islam and the Last Day: Christian Perspectives on Islamic Eschatology
Peter Riddell & John Azumah –Islam and Christianity on the Edge: Talking Points in Christian-Muslim Relations Into the 21st Century
Paul Marshall (editor) & Peter Riddell (contributor) –Radical Islam’s Rules: The Worldwide Spread of Extreme Sharia Law
Ira Lapidus –A History of Islamic Societies
Karen Armstrong –Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time
MUSIC:
Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Islamic History: The Crusades are Only One Link in the Chain – Part 1:
We have a historian in the studio with us today, and so we’re gonna develop a 3 part series. Those of you that don’t like history will just have to disappear for the next 3 weeks. Those of you that love history will be really engaged for the next 3 weeks and the rest of you that don’t care so strongly either way will probably enjoy it because he has a Australian accent Right. And, is a historian and has dedicated his life to studying Islam. Right.
And this part 1, we’re gonna be talking a little bit about, you know, historians and how they kinda come to the conclusion, conclusions and and that kind of thing, just to kinda build up, the conversation before we begin it. And then part 2 Mhmm. We’re gonna be talking about some of the Christian Muslim tension over history and how that kinda built up and turned into the Crusades. And then the last episode, we’re gonna be talking about what does that mean for us today. Right.
As, one of our friends, mentors, colleagues, doctor Barnett always said, so what? So what? So we’ll deal with the so what in part 3 and, hope you guys enjoy this series with doctor Peter Riddell from Melbourne School of Theology. Yes. One hears a lot of a lot of comments from different people about the importance of particular historical events.
And one of the most commonly mentioned historical events is the crusades, of course. And a few years ago, president Clinton, your president, President Clinton made the comment that, the problems between Christians and Muslims started with the Crusades. And that raised questions in my mind, and I’m not gonna dwell on the crusades at this point, but it’s the idea that, a particular event in history causes this stream of problems or effects, from that moment as if nothing before, nothing came after. I think the thing is when you’re when you’re studying history, when you’re looking at history, it’s best to think of history as a kind of chain, a chain that’s made up made up of a series of links. And you can take any link out and study it, and you should.
So we might take the link out that applies to the crusades and study that. But, of course, that link is connected with links that came before and with links that follow it. So for example, before the crusades, there were a series of events that affected the crusades. After the crusades, there are series of events that were affected by the Crusades. So history studying history is like studying a chain, and you can stand back and see the whole chain and get the big picture, or you can focus in on particular moments in that chain and particular links in that chain to look at the detail.
But you have to see the interconnections. That’s one of the important tasks of the historian, I think. Once again, Muslim terrorists A terrorist A terrorist. Extremist and illegal extremists. The country.
They’re random justice and brutal endeavors. Newsflash America. These Muslim extremists are are alive and well. They are not dead, and their video is not gratuitous, and it certainly is not irrelevant. It is a warning.
Welcome to Truth About Muslims podcast. The official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. So we’re back. This is Truth About Muslims podcast, and we have Peter Riddell in the studio.
Really excited. And we’re gonna make this, part of our Islam 101 series. 101 episodes about Islam. Not really. Not not a 100 and 1 episodes, but, we’re talking about the basics and, kind of an introduction to Islam and doctor Riddell is gonna be kinda walking us through the historical formation of of Islam.
And, Trevor, tell us a little bit about, what Peter specializes in. He specializes in bass guitar, for 1. And, also, he is, has his PhD in chronic exegesis, actually. And so the Quran is his specialty but also, teaching, history and development of Islam. And, Peter, you’re working on something right now for, Brill.
Is that right? Yes. There’s a, a really major, multi volume, multi year project that’s going on at the moment, tracking the history of Christian Muslim relations and gathering together all the literary materials that relate to that. So, yeah, I’m I’m involved in that. So there really isn’t a work out there that kinda, articulates all the different things that have been said by Muslims about Christians and by Christians about Muslims, but we have been writing about each other for quite some time.
Right? Exactly. And that’s the purpose of of the encyclopedia. There are, you know, there are studies done of a slice of history, where Christians have, been talking about Muslims or vice versa, but there’s been no consolidated study of the history of the writing that Christians and Muslims make about each other or against each other. So that’s the that’s the tagline of this project, Christians and Muslims writing about or against each other.
Okay. So before we get into the discussion about specific links, because I’m I’m really curious about what are the links that you think are the most important when we do look at, history and development of Islamic history and its relationships with Christians? Before we even get into that, how how should we go about looking at history? Because there’s so many different viewpoints about how to study history. What do you think?
Hey, ladies. I’m from, Truth About Muslims podcast. Have you heard of it? Yep. Okay.
So we want you to read an ad for us. Can you do that? You’ll be famous, like, world famous. It’ll be amazing. C I u?
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Alright. CIU educates people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. You wanna read that again? Yep. I feel like I’ll be so embarrassed moving out there.
I just, I just had a had a great holiday by the beach and, one of the things we we did as a as a group was, in addition to lying on the beach and swimming in the ocean and so forth, we we did some jigsaw puzzles, and we had 500 piece jigsaw puzzles and 1,000 piece jigsaw puzzles. And the the great thing was that all the jigsaw puzzles were complete. So when we completed them, we had the full picture in front of us. Doing history is often like trying to do a jigsaw puzzle, but you don’t have the 4, 500 pieces, you might only have 50 pieces. So what you what you have to do as a historian is you is you take your 50 pieces and you you put them together as best you can, and that gives you part of a picture.
And so you then have to guess, really, from that that part of a picture what the rest of the picture looks like. Now, 2 different people might, look at that part of the picture and reach different and guessing from that limited information what the full picture is going to be. It makes history a fascinating fascinating exercise. I I love history for that reason, but it also allows for different conclusions, which might be very different, but each valid. Right.
That’s that’s what I was just gonna ask because, if if it’s that way, if people are just kind of, like, interpreting, coming up with, their their conclusions, they’re all gonna be different. It’s kinda like the book of Revelation where there’s, like, millions of commentaries on the book of Revelation. So how how would you say that you would come up with, one that would be you could argue that would be more accurate than other? Would it just be the amount of information you have or the skill at interpreting? Yeah.
Well, it’ll be both, actually. The the more the information you have, the more likely, that you’re going to have an accurate picture. But also, you have to be skillful as an interpreter. You have to look at the information that’s that’s there. You have to go through a logical flow of, interpreting the data that’s available to you.
But you also have to be open to different interpretations, and this is one of the reasons I love I love being a teacher. In that, in teaching students, it’s wrong for me to go in as a historian to my class and say, well, here’s the limited picture, here’s what I think, and therefore, there’s your answer. What I have to do as a teacher and get is to go in and say, here’s the limited picture, here’s what this person interprets, here’s what another person interprets, here’s what another person interprets, And so you guys, you students, have gotta work through that yourselves and reach your own conclusions. That’s the role of the historian and that’s the role of the teacher as well. Okay.
So a lot of folks are probably shifting in their chair thinking, how can you have 2 competing ideas that are equally valid? This isn’t sitting well with some folks, this idea of 2 competing or contesting ideas that are both equally valid. Well, you have to, you have to be willing to listen to views other than your own to see whether there’s something there that might challenge your own particular view. As I say, if you’ve got a 500 piece puzzle and you have the 500 piece pieces, then you can reach a confirmed conclusion. But if you’ve only got 50 pieces, you’ve got to be willing to listen to others, And they may trigger something in your mind which helps you reach your own conclusions.
I don’t know any historians, but I’m assuming And now you know people. Right. Right. But I’m assuming you do. So are there, like, drag out knockout fights, like, at conventions or such, like, where people just are so, in I wanna see a historian fight.
Like, 2 historians just Right? They pull out books from their book bag and, you know, hit people or briefcase, I guess, probably. They’d be carrying briefcases. Is that is that what are they really stubborn? Are they really opinionated?
It just seems like to really put forth your case, you would have to have really strong beliefs. Absolutely. I mean, look, if you’re not opinionate if you’re going to academic life and you’re not opinionated, you’re going to be at a bit of disadvantage. It’s a little bit like the old movie with Gary Cooper in High Noon where he sort of marches down the street facing somebody else and he draws his gun. In the case of the historian, they draw the history books and they throw them at at each other.
Right. Right. Right. Well well, Trevor, I’m glad that you’re, you’re in academia because you’re really opinionated. Yeah.
I think I’ve become less opinionated. I think. I don’t know. I was always quick to draw the sword. I’ve become a little bit hesitant in drawing the sword, but looking at this from the context and and one of the things that has made me less hesitant was I was so quick to draw the sword, against Muslims and thinking that I had already drawn my conclusions and had my conclusions made up about what I believed and what they believed.
And then I started interacting with Muslims and suddenly I found drawing the sword was not necessarily the the best way to share the gospel and to be open minded when looking at somebody across the table from another faith. So is there a point, Peter even to study other faiths like Islam? Shouldn’t we just know our own faith and and let Muslims believe what they believe or do you think Christians should be studying Islam? I definitely think Christians should be studying Islam. The thing is, at the end of the day, whatever kind of person we’re interacting with, be it a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu, whatever, if we don’t understand something about their worldview, about their beliefs, If we don’t understand a good bit about their worldview and their beliefs, then, we’ll be interacting with a kind of image that we hold, which might be of no resemblance to what they actually are.
I think it’s very important to study other faiths if you wanna talk with people of other faiths. Right. Trevor and I talk a little bit about, how different individuals are and how, it it does kinda get us in trouble when we look at people in stereotypes. And, with this show, we meet a lot of, people that talk about Muslims, and we can’t help but talk about them in some generalization because it’s it’s it’s helpful, with these handles. But how would you, how do you sidestep that as a historian not to be too general, you know, so that it’s actually helpful for, people that are actually studying Islam and not kind of painting them into a corner like this is what all Muslims are like.
But at the same time, you know, being able to communicate in a way that’s actually not just volume after volume after volume because there’s so many different representations of Muslims and what they believe. Yeah. I mean, it’s true. If you present a picture of too much diversity, it can be paralyzing Right. Really and cause huge confusion.
So what you’ve gotta do is is, in a sense, let Muslims speak for themselves, and I’m by that I mean different Muslims. So what I do in my classes is that I, one way or other, whether it’s through films or books or having some Muslim guest speakers, whatever, you get different kinds of Muslim people coming in articulating their students and say, okay, let’s process this. How are you hearing the differences? What are the students and say, okay, let’s process this. How are you hearing the differences?
What are the Muslims that you’re hearing agreeing on? What are they disagreeing on? And where does what does that mean for you as a Christian? So you’re presenting some diversity, you’re you’re getting away from the problem of stereotyping, but you’re not giving so much diversity that they’re paralyzed and confused. Alright.
So this show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors. And at this point in the show is where if you wanna partner with us, we would put your ad. So if you wanna be a part of the show, you wanna partner with us, you like what we’re doing, you wanna be on our team, what have you, bringing this show to the world, then email us and let us know. Alright. I think we have to move to a link in the chain.
Peter, what would be the first link in the chain of the history of Islam that you think is the one that, you know, listeners should know about? Obviously, no one is gonna be able to to understand the full chain of Islam unless they dedicate their life like you have to to studying this faith. So what what are some of the turning points, I guess, using Mark Knoll, historian, his book Turning Points. What are some of the turning points in the development of the history of Islam? Well, undoubtedly starting at the chronological beginning of Islam and its context.
So looking at the life of Mohammed, looking at his interactions with others, but with Christians, with Jews, looking at how that shaped, Islamic writings of the period. So that would be a key turning point, I think. A key foundational point, actually. That initial that initial period is foundational. It’s formative.
Then beyond that, there are other key links in the chain as well. I think some folks probably don’t realize that Mohammed did interact with Christians in the beginning. So maybe we should start there. Help us understand some of the foundational, foundational relationships that Mohammed had in the in the Christian and and Jewish world there in the beginning. Yes.
Well, and and, of course, then you want to ask what what the sources are that you’re going to use. Now the sources that are available for for us to understand Mohammed’s early contacts with Christians and Jews a bit the Quran, but not so much the Quran, it’s not a historical book, you’d need to turn to the hadith or the traditions about Mohammed’s life, and they’re available in many volumes, and they’re that they they represent a very important text for for Muslims. But you’d also wanna look at the Sira or the biography, the biographical materials, which give you lots of detail on Mohammed’s life. And if you look at those texts, you find that, the story they tell is that when he was 12, he was part of a, trading caravan that went up to Syria and he met a Christian monk. You have other stories in in those materials that talk about his interactions with, Christians and Jews in other locations as well.
So that’s where you’d find the the earliest references to Mohammed meeting Christians and Jews, and those meetings no doubt shaped his attitudes in certain sorts of ways. So you’re saying he grew up in a community that would be Christian, Jewish, other, I guess. I don’t I don’t know what other religion they were at the time, but so he’d be interacting on a community level. Yeah. Definitely.
Like his family, maybe, trading or buying or, working with. Yeah. Definitely. And this is, you know, this is not me saying this. This is coming from the Islamic materials themselves that they paid a picture of a society in Arabia where Mohammed was born and grew up that was multi faith really.
You had Christians present, you had Jews present, you had, other kinds of monotheists or people who believe in one God, you have people who believe in many gods. So it was a really multicultural, multi faith society that he grew up in, so he got impressions that way. Okay. So Trevor and I’ve been talking, on and off about, Mohammed and where he kind of got his ideas. It makes me think if he’s in a community like this and so influenced by Jewish and Christian thinking, right, and maybe some of these other religions, would there be others like him, like, starting their own type of faith or, branching off of Christian, Christian views or Orthodoxy.
Or Orthodoxy. Correct. Yeah. A couple of points there. Certainly, there were others who claimed to be kinds of prophets.
Again, the Islamic materials talk about that. And Mohammed, and his followers regarded them as false prophets. There’s reference to them in the in the different materials. That’s the first point. The second point was the idea of borrowing ideas of Mohammed getting ideas from Christians and Jews.
It’s very hard to to trace that. And there’s an another way of viewing that that’s been suggested by some writers in recent times, and that is when you see a story in the Islamic books that sounds like a story in the Bible, does that mean that it was borrowed directly? Or does it simply mean that that story was circulating among the different communities in the Arabian Peninsula? So a common story. So that in a sense, it was a bit like having a big pool, which had these stories in them.
The different communities fished out the stories for their own storytelling. Right. And as each community told a story, it changed a little bit. You know, it was altered in certain sorts of ways, as happens when you tell a story. Mhmm.
But they were all coming from a big common pool. I think that’s a more likely kind of explanation rather than the explanation that Mohammed borrowed this directly from Christians or from Jews. Wouldn’t don’t you feel like, Christians would be uncomfortable with the idea that, maybe some of their prophets had some ideas that were, in a common pool and that they had come and and written those things. I’m thinking about Moses and the Torah, like, the with the, the writing creation, the story of creation, and some of those things. Would you say that even the, that Moses would have been susceptible to the ideas that were going around that in that day?
In his day? Mhmm. Yeah. I I guess so. I mean, I I haven’t looked so much at that but the principle of having a common pool of ideas when you have a when you have a a community that’s a multicultural community, the principle of having common stories that float around the different communities tell, but it takes a particular twist each time it’s told in a different community.
I think that makes sense for for any age. You know, you find references to Moses in the Quran, for example. Now, does that mean that Mohammed borrowed directly from the bible, or does it mean that there were stories about Moses floating around in Arabian society, which might have originally come in from Jews and Christians, but they were adapted and adopted and storytellers told them, and they had a little twist and a turn and a change. I think that’s a more likely explanation. So thinking about the development of Islam and the particular time frame of which Mohammed is born, late, 5 70, and all the way up until his flight to Medina in 6/22, you have all of these stories that are floating around.
Some have made the case that a lot of the stories floating around are actually early Christian heresies of the Monophysites and, Nestorians and all these different Christian communities that have disagreements about the nature of Christ. And they would want to say that this is really where a lot of these ideas come from. What what are your thoughts about that sort of theory? Well, it might be the case, but you can’t prove that’s the case. However, when you see, for example, that, there is a kind of oblique reference in the Quran to the trinity meaning God, Mary, and Jesus, and then you have such a view held by certain, non orthodox Christian groups in the Arabian Peninsula, naturally, you think that there’s must have been some kind of interaction there.
But doesn’t mean necessarily that Mohammed borrowed from that group or that at some point there was interaction the, you know, the borrowing was made. I think the latter. I’m I’m cautious on suggesting direct borrowing by a particular person from a particular group. Mhmm. Does that make sense?
So that’s kind of like the interpretation that you’re talking about that historians have to do. This is the missing piece. We don’t have a direct correlation, but, you know, you might assume but not be able to stand on and say, hey. This is absolute truth. Absolutely.
Yeah. Right. And I know, some have suggested, Mohammed’s relative who apparently at least seems to be a Christian, Warteka, is some have really built their whole sort of foundation around this one particular guy. Have you have you given much thought to Wortaka’s influence on Mohammed? Well, again, so this that person Warakah, he’s mentioned in the biographical materials that I mentioned at the outset.
It’s a pretty fleeting reference to Warakah. You know, He doesn’t have, there are not pages of his resume indicating where he worked and where he did his training and so forth. So, again, that’s a classic case of having a 100 piece jigsaw puzzle and holding 1 piece. What are you gonna do with that 1 piece? You can you can add you can create 35 pieces to go with it, but it’s highly speculative.
And I might create my 35 pieces and reach a different conclusion from yourself. There’s not a whole lot on Huaracar, so I tend not to write much about Huaraca because there’s just not much available. That was part 1 of our interview with Peter Riddell. I hope you guys like it. I know that, it’s starting off a little bit differently because we’re not really getting into some of the topics yet, but just hold on because part 2 is coming, and, I think you’re really gonna like it.
Trevor, did you have anything to say about, about Peter? Yeah. I mean, Peter is a, Koranic scholar. He’s got a few books out, which we’ll put links to in the show. I really appreciate his, sort of, nuancing the discussion about history in this first episode because a lot of times we just sort of accept history as, you know, purely just fact, date, you know, name, place, battle.
And, he’s really dealing with, big pictures, even the sort of the philosophical assumptions that go into studying history. And these are all important nuances, especially when we’re talking about, you know, 1,700,000,000 people. You can’t just, approach it as just sort of a, hey, this happened here and this happened here, and that’s as simple as it really is. Right. Tune back for next week.
It’s gonna be part 2 of this series, Islamic history.