Zwemer Center

Theme Music by: Nobara Hayakawa – Trail

Sponsor Music by: Drunk Pedestrians – Mean

Interlude Music by: Chris Zabriskie – Vampire Policeman

Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Islamic History: The Crusades are Only One Link in the Chain – Part 3:

 

Welcome back to Truth About Muslims podcast. That was so cheesy. Stop. We got, Peter Riddell in the studio, and Trevor is always making fun of my intro. Yeah.

It’s, part 3 guys in a 3 part series and, really this is the this part of the series where we ask, so what? Yeah. You know? Because a lot of people don’t understand why why study history. Right.

And I think this is the most exciting part. Yeah. It might not be the most exciting story wise, but I think as far as practical application, I think that’s important. And I wanna know what history should, you know, how it should inform how I act or think towards Muslims today. Yeah.

And I think it’s helpful, like, doctor Ruddell has laid out for us so far that as Christians, it is helpful to look at, people of other faiths and their their religion and their history and then also our interactions. And so, this episode really, helps us to understand what’s going on today in the context and the in the chain of events as we’ve been talking about over the part this 3 part series. The chain of events that, you know, came be what came before a particular link and what comes after. And And so anytime you see something on the news, recognize that particular event has a chain that goes before it, and that particular event will affect the links coming after it. And I think that’s a really neat way to look at history.

Right. Well, we hope you enjoy. Well, once again, Muslim terrorists. A terrorist Islamist and demon extremists down the middle terrorists of the country. Their brand of justice is brutal and deadly.

News flash America. These Muslim extremists are are alive and well. They are not dead, and their video is not gratuitous, and it irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the Truth About Muslims podcast.

The official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies. Where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Do Christians need to ask, for forgiveness for the for the crusades? Is that part of our reconciliation with with Muslims and and decreasing that tension?

What would you say? Well, I’m a great believer in repentance and reconciliation. What at the same time, I believe that if you have 22 communities that have a history of conflict between themselves, then both sides need to jointly repent and involve be involved in reconciliation. Because if only one side involves itself in the reconciliation, it risks the other saying, you see, we were right all along. You guys did the wrong thing.

So I think Christians and Muslims should meet together, talk about history, to discuss history, and each account for how they’ve contributed to the problems of the present day. So I read a recent, scholar that we’re both familiar with, say, it seems a bit silly to didn’t word it this way necessarily, but it seems a bit silly to ask forgiveness for crusades and then just to keep doing them. And this this came from a Middle Eastern scholar that is a believer in studies Islam as well, but says, you know, we we can apologize for the crusades, but they just keep coming. So what’s the point? And he obviously was, referencing the United States and its foreign policy and that he sees that and that the Muslim world sees that as just an ongoing crusade.

What are your thoughts about that as a good Australian? I think my my my first response would be to say, well, let’s not accept at face value the comparison. If you’re going to compare things, you wanna make certain that you’re comparing like with like. And the crusades were sanctioned by the Pope in Rome. He issued forgiveness to any people who took part, a remission for their sins.

There was definitely a theological, a huge theological dimension to the whole crusade project in the Middle Ages. That’s quite different to what’s going on today. Now that’s not to justify, issues of today, but for me, that kind of statement is comparing apples with oranges. I don’t think it’s that helpful. I think if you’re gonna make a comparison, not helpful to make sloppy comparisons, and for me that’s a sloppy comparison, to be honest.

I kinda had an Australian question. Something in Australian history that’s really interesting to me is Anzac Day. Mhmm. The Australians had this huge battle with the Turkish the Turkish. Right?

The Turks. Mhmm. But then they I’ve I’ve heard of reports where they actually celebrated. I think it was during World War 2 or something like that. They actually celebrated they were on the same side, the Turks and the Australians in this point.

And they actually celebrated Anzac Day together, honoring one another for for their bravery because it was a crazy battle. It was a crazy bloody battle. But they didn’t hate each other. They didn’t hold that. And I know maybe you can’t say anything to this, but, you know, as an Australian, like, Americans, we just don’t do that.

So what what would you say is different about the the in that situation? Why would, you know, a battle like that and it was bloody, lots of loss on both sides. How can they come together and still be, you know, they they’re they’re buying each other beers and stuff and just, you know, like enjoying each other’s company and how does that happen in in today’s world? Yeah. When I was growing up, Anzac Day was celebrated then as it is now.

But when in in the days when I was growing up, Anzac Day was clearly a day to remember the Australian involvement along with the British and and others Indians. Australian involvement and Australian loss. So in other words, to, yeah, to commemorate what was actually a military defeat for the Australians and the Brits and the Indians, but nevertheless, to to commemorate our loss. Now what’s happened since then, and I I’m talking there in the, you know, sixties seventies and so forth. What’s happened since then is, there has been a the development of very large Turkish community in Australia.

So no longer were the Turks this foreign group over there in Turkey, but we have a large Turkish community in Sydney, large Turkish community in in Melbourne with mosques and so forth. And so they also for them, the attack on Gallipoli is very significant, and they are also Australian. So all of a sudden, the the memory of the campaign at Gallipoli, fighting between Australians and Turks, is relevant to both Anglo Australians and Turkish Australians. So the memory of Anzac Day has metamorphosed over the years. So, for example, we’ve we found this year that, the centenary celebrations of Anzac Day that were held in in different parts of Australia and over in Turkey, there were Turkish speakers, there were Anglo Australian speakers commemorating the joint experience of of battle and loss.

It’s very healthy in a way. So it it’s it it goes along with kinda what you’re saying, knowing individual stories, knowing people, not just stereotypes. Yeah. Absolutely. I don’t know.

I just find that that would not happen in the US. We have large groups of Muslim population in the US, and yet they’re still separated. They’re so still so different. There was that other thing, and that happened on Australia was, the come ride with me hashtag come ride with me campaign, where somebody was, or it was during the cafe hostage situation. And, somebody had posted on Facebook their story or Twitter their story of this, Muslim woman that was on the train or the bus, subway, something like that, but public transportation, and they were watching the news.

And it was about the hostage situation. And the woman just pulled off her head covering and just started weeping. And the woman felt really compassion. The one who’s writing this on the Twitter, sat next to her and said, you know, I’m here with you. I’ll ride with you.

Don’t take this off. Put it back on. You know, just kind of in camaraderie standing next to her. You know? And, when she got off the bus, the lady gave her a long hug and then wandered away.

Never put her, her head covering back on. And then after that, it was just, like, a 100 and 50,000 tweets of a hashtag I’ll ride with you. Just like saying, hey. If there’s any Muslims, that need don’t feel safe in public transportation, I’m at this bus stop. I’m this and just tweeting all over the place.

But that was in Australia. I don’t see that happening in the US. Yeah. I mean, I can’t comment on the US. I I don’t know the situation as well, but that was quite a famous, series of incidents surrounding that Lindt Cafe, and the hostage situation.

Right. Ironically, I mean, it was tragic because 2 people were were killed in that hostage situation and and yet that loss led to, some warm relationships between Muslims and and non Muslims in other ways. It’s it’s tragically ironic. I guess I just wanna know, your thoughts just because, Australia seems to be doing some things, you know, much better than the US as far as when it comes to Muslim relations. So And and that’s what we see in the news.

Is that is it a fair assessment? Are you guys doing well with your Muslim immigrant communities? Is there good relationships or is it, does it have as much tension as what you see here in the United States? Because you’ve been here a few times and seen and, you know, we talk and you’re aware of the ongoing tension here with the immigrant communities and Muslims. How is it in Australia?

Hey, ladies. I’m from, Truth About Muslims podcast. Have you heard of it? Yeah. Okay.

So we want you to read an ad for us. Can you do that? You’ll be famous, like, world famous. It’ll be amazing. C I u?

C I u. C CIU. CIU. CIU. I’m Kevin Kekaizon.

Kevin. Yeah. I’m a woman. Kevin. Oh, wow.

Look nice. You just Luke Fain. Luke Fain. Luke. Alright.

CIU educates people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. You wanna read that again? Yep. You’re like, I’ll be so embarrassed to be out there. Well, it varies.

You get you get many cases of, of joint activities, you get dialogue groups, dialogue groups. You get joint cultural activities. So there are some very good things going on. And but, of course, we also have, as Britain is having and as, many European nations of having, we have a minority of, Muslim radicals in Australia. Australia’s got, by recent accounts, the proportion of young Muslims who’ve left Australia to join ISIS is one of the highest proportions in the Western world.

Wow. So that’s causing concern. So it’s a mixed story, you see. Now, having said that, the a number of young people have been detained at airports on the trying to exit the country to go and join ISIS in Syria, and they’ve been detained because of tip-off to the security authorities from other Muslims as well. So you see it’s a mixed story.

So we do have a problem with Muslim radicalism, but, some other Muslims are helping out in dealing with the problem. So, yeah, we we we’ve got problems, but we we’ve got some good things happening as well. So, looking looking at the whole of history, the entire chain Mhmm. The rise of political Islam, what are some of the main turning points just looking back that we need to at least spend a little bit of time swimming in those points of history in order to understand current day trends within Islam. Yeah.

Another, are there for me, there are a number of myths in history. I suppose I should preface what I’m about to say by just reminding our listeners about the difference between statements of opinion and statements of fact. One of the things one has to do in history is to present statements of opinion, but we should indicate that that they’re opinion, not facts. So for example, if I say that, you know, New York is, is a huge city, that’s a statement of fact. If I say New York’s the best city in the United States, it’s a statement of opinion.

Probably depends who you ask. Probably. So with with, with history, we often have to make statements of opinion but we should indicate that they are our opinions. Now where where is this leading to? In my view, in my opinion, the rise of political Islam in recent times is merely a rerun of what has happened at different points of history.

Sometimes you hear commentators say radical Islam, political Islam is a 20 20th 21st century phenomenon. I just don’t agree with that. What I see is, the history of Islam is like a wave. It’s like a chain, but it’s also like a wave with peaks and troughs. And what strikes me when I look at the history of Islam over the 14 centuries of its existence is that when after a peak, after a period of glory and greatness, and you hit a trough, at the period of the trough, you find a a call to return to the text, to the basics, or a call to return to Islamic law, to return to the example of the prophet, to literally follow the call of the text.

Now that happened, in 1200 when, the great Islamic empire was destroyed by the Mongol invasions, and all of a sudden you found these writers emerging in the 12, 1300, who sound very much like the radical writers today. I’m thinking of particular names, for for the purpose of your listeners who may know people like Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Kathir and so forth, these are these are radical writers in their own day. Likewise, in the late 1700, you find a period of decline, and so the Wahhabis emerge. The Wahhabi movement emerges in that period. In the 1900, you find the radicals emerging, as we have seen in our own day.

And so for me, they’re they are you’re talking about turning points or key moments in history. The the troughs in Islamic history are key because that’s when the radicals emerge, and it they they emerge in response to perceived weakness of Islam at the time. So that does kind of answer our questions about, whether Islam is on the rise or or, decline, when you look at the troughs if they do come back to radicalism. But I guess the same could, again, could be said about Christianity too because we do have that kind of text. The US needs to repent.

We hear that kind of stuff all the time. Mhmm. If this is because of the abortion or because of homosexuality or Prayer in schools. Oh, yeah. Prayer in schools.

This is the judgment of the Lord, you know, coming down in the US. But it seems it it feels kind of ethnocentric, to me in that regard. But in terms of Islam, it makes sense. So what is the, the first trough and the first rise? Would you point back to the argument with the Mu’tazilites in is it the Kartagites that that really is the sort of beginnings of this and this is just that same argument being replayed throughout history?

Well, yeah. I mean And you gotta give some explanation to some background to these 2 groups. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I’m you mentioned the Kharijites. They were, the Kharijia. They were crucial. In a sense, they were the first radicals in Islam, and they emerged in this middle of the 600 because in their view, the Islamic caliph at the time was taking well, he was taking part in a process of negotiation and compromise that they did not accept. Their view was, to dismiss anybody who didn’t adopt their view as unbelievers.

So they dismiss other Muslims who were of a different viewpoint as as unbelievers, as apostates, and they they wanted to effectively kill them as a result. So they were the first radicals in the early 600, and that was a period although Islam was rising, in their view, it was in decline because it was taking part in the process of negotiation and compromise. So key moments were that period, 600, 1200, 1700, 1900. And if you go to individual regions, you find variations on the theme, so you’ll find peaks and troughs in individual regions as well. So in an overall scheme of things, the Islamic wave of history consists of rises and troughs.

But then if you look at a particular area like Southeast Asia, it’ll have its own process of rises and troughs as well. It’s interesting when you say the the the radicals that are coming in. I wonder how much social media or globalization really plays a part in, perceived decline or perceived, compromise by these radicals. Because, you know, back in the day, they would hear about maybe the chaos ruling ruling or the pope’s ruling or whatever and then have these, you know, kind of ideas by pamphlet. But today, it’s not like that at all.

I mean, it’s it’s immediate and you’re depending on what website you go to or what news media outlet you go to, you have a different total perception of what’s actually going on. So I wonder if that this kinda nullifies that idea that the the radicals will show the decline because there there’s just gonna be radicals everywhere because of, you know, just the options that they have. Mhmm. The viewpoints. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s a good point. I think the whole the whole ease of access to mass media and to the the distribute dissemination of knowledge and so forth is has cast a completely different context on on the question of, the tussle for power within well, different worlds really, but we’re talking about the Islamic world, of course. So will the radicals of the 21st century, will they have the same impact that they had that the Wahabis had for example in the in around the turn of the 1800? Possibly not because non radicals are able to track them and oppose them in a way that was not so easy to do in around 1800.

So it’s a completely different context. You know, we’re seeing the Islamic State in the Middle East, we’re seeing, such radical groups flourish in certain limited contexts, But all those who oppose them have, immediate access to what they’re doing, and therefore, they they have immediate much more immediate ability to stand against them. So we’ll see where it leads. Right. True.

Because, it used to be with these Islamic radicals, if they were violent, that would be their main, you know, weapon, per se. But, now they have to fight battles online too. ISIS is doing that really well or, you know, trying to radicalize, you know, people from all over. And but but at the same time, who who is it we were talking to about, deradicalization? Was it it was No.

It was Matthew Stone. We haven’t released that episode yet though. That will be this week, but, yeah. That that’s, it’s like a whole different front. It’s not just, a gun, you know, or a sword or what whatnot.

You know, it’s more than that now. Well, yeah. I mean, it’s the the I think the most sort of momentum they can gain is it’s not difficult to show up at least a perceived threat, an Islam under attack. And I’ve looked at a few, of the recruiting videos and they’re they’re not just, you know, slick in their production. They’ve actually got some compelling arguments that they make and they’ll even go back all the way to the early councils of the church and talk about the nature of Christ and how, you know, Christianity got it wrong and they made Jesus.

And so they’re actually making some theological arguments and then they’re making some sociological arguments and so they’re taking the full breadth of of what’s going on in the world and using it to make compelling arguments to recruit people and, I think it’s actually quite interesting that they’ve not just looked at it as well, we have to recruit people theologically. They’re looking at it from a political means, sociological means, historical means, you name it and they seem to be using it for recruitment. Yeah. Yeah. They certainly are very sophisticated.

They’ve got some very, you know, knowledgeable people there. There’s no doubt about it. And their whole campaign through the Dubich Magazine and and other online promotions is quite quite impressive in many ways. Though horrifying in another way. But where where it strikes me that the situation is different in this phase of radicalism in Islam is that on the one hand, as you say, ISIS are doing they’re putting out that putting out that slick advertising.

And if all that if that was all they were doing, they might attract a whole lot more support. But at the same time, other Muslims are able to see the reports of the beheadings of the slave markets of the Yazidi women, the most horrifying side of what they were doing. So that is a kind of that insulates some Muslims about from being besotted by the kind of advertising that’s going on by by ISIS. Right. It just seems like the most, the people that it will mostly reach will be the most desperate, or violent minded, which are probably I mean, maybe for ISIS is what you want, but as for a to win over the general population of the world, for your cause, it’s not gonna work.

Yeah. I don’t know if they have hearts and minds at the core of their recruitment, but, I I think that there has to be people that are wondering and they want want this question to be asked. You mentioned, the troughs and the peaks. And that when they head down the peak towards the trough, there’s a return to the text. You are a textual guy.

Your Koranic exegesis and so are they returning to the right interpretation of the text? The right interpretation of the text. Somebody’s like, yes. He asked it. Well, one thing I will say from the outset is that as a non Muslim, I am not going to tell Muslims what is the right interpretation of the text.

Bottom line is I know lots of Muslims, and I hear from those Muslims different interpretations of the text. So it’s not my role to tell them what’s right and what’s wrong. Nice sidestep. Yeah. That’s that’s what Howard always says to me.

It’s like you’re sidestepping. I’m not sidestepping. That’s that’s reality. I mean, it it is well, it is true because we we don’t like it when they do that to us when somebody says to me, well, you know, Christianity really teaches this and I’m thinking, woah, wait a second, you know, this is a very diverse, you know, religion and religious interpretation from the scripture. You know, there’s a historical context.

There are different viewpoints, and I don’t like it when somebody sort of just pigeonholes it and makes it a one sort of, you know, one trick pony. Is that the right analogy there? Yeah. Well, I I agree with you both. I agree with what you’ve just said, Trevor, but I was right in saying it was a nice side step.

I used to play rugby, and that’s where I learned to learned to do the side step. Alright. So this show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors. And at this point in the show is where if you wanna partner with us, we would put your ad. So if you wanna be a part of the show, you wanna partner with us, you like what we’re doing, you wanna be on our team, what have you, bringing this show to the world, then email us and let us know.

Peter, aside from your own books which we’re gonna put links to in the show notes, any particular reads, looking at the history and the relationships between Christians and Muslims or just Muslim history in general that you think our listeners would really benefit from? Look, there’s a lot of stuff out there. I think, some of the writing Ira Lapidus’ monumental study of Islamic history is it’s been around for a while now, but still a very good read, to be honest. I think, both Christian writers of Islamic history and, secular writers have produced a lot of good stuff out there. I’d point people in his direction in the first instance.

What are your thoughts about Karen Armstrong’s books? She’s written a lot, and she seems to be quite controversial. Yeah. It’s more on a popular level. Yeah.

But, worth worthwhile reads or Well, again, it’s I mean, I don’t, I think if I was if Karen Armstrong and I were having a discussion, it would end up being a debate in many kinds of ways. However, I, again, with my students, I ensure that when they’re reading materials for their studies, I have a range of materials and I recommend her material as part of that. I think hers is an important voice. I disagree with it in all kinds of ways, but that’s irrelevant in a sense because students need to read a range of viewpoints and to process that information themselves and to reach their own conclusions. Thank you so much, Peter, for coming in, flying in all the way from Australia.

Yeah. That’s right. Just for us. We didn’t even do our Australian accent. That’s because we don’t wanna be insulting.

But, thank you for taking the time, being in the studio. We know that your time is precious. You’re here teaching, at at school, and so, thank you for doing that for us. Okay. Favorite musician as a bass guitarist?

Because I I’ve heard you play the bass. I don’t actually know it to be true. It’s just rumored around. Alright. Is it true first of all?

Do you really rock the bass and, who’s your favorite musician? Actually, well, I’m gonna have to answer that in a slightly unexpected way from your perspective in that I’m first and foremost a 6 string guitarist, actually. I I do bass because that’s what they need at church, but I’m more a 6 string guitarist and, yeah. Jazz guitarist, I love, George Benson, Barney Kessel, Joe Pass, some of the older ones. Great great players.

Got it. So not like Eddie Van Halen, 6th string. Sure. Okay. Yeah.

Thanks, Peter. We really appreciate it. Pleasure. Great to talk.