Discussion surrounding Islam inevitably leads to whether the true nature of Islam is violent. Who has it right, the violent extremist or the passive nominal Muslim? Which begs the question, is the nominal Muslim a true Muslim?

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Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Islamic Theology and the True Nature of Islam: 

 

 

That’s a basic difference in Christianity where we know, we believe, and we preach that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. In Islam, apparently, he is willing that some would perish. God will some to go to hell. Once again, Muslim terrorists. A terrorist.

 

A terrorist. Islamic extremist. Extremist. Terrorists of the country. They’re random justice and brutal endeavors.

 

News flash America. These Muslim extremists are are alive and well, they are not dead, and their video is not gratuitous, and it certainly is not irrelevant. It is a warning. Welcome to the Truth About Muslims podcast. The official podcast of the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media.

 

Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. So, we’re here in the studio with doctor Warren Larson. And, doctor Larson teaches a course, Columbia International University on Islamic Theology. And I think today with everything that we see in the news, this particular subject matter is of is of new interest to people, Warren. So it’s good to have you and I think the big question for us is Thank you.

 

We see, Muslims, 1.6 7,000,000,000 Muslims around the world being presented, as sort of this, well, oftentimes they’re presented as terrorists. And it seems that there’s there has to be more complexity, more nuance in how theology happens in Islam. So it’s good to have you. How how should we view Islamic theology in the 21st century? Well, I I just when I think of of a Muslim theologians and, I I I realized that they have not all been the same.

 

In fact, in fact, that they have struggled over, how to interpret the Quran for 100 and 100 of years. And, we hear things in this country like the Quran is a violent book, or we hear that, we get the impression that the Quran is just, interested in in in telling people how to kill their enemies, how Muslims should kill their enemies? The truth is is that that is a matter of interpretation, and there are Muslims who have, who have advocated, you know, warmth and and injustice and all of those kind of things. I’m not saying that some Muslims are not, are not mean spirited and and and as we see today that’s true. But I guess I guess the study of Islamic theology for me has given me new respect for, for the type of for for Muslims who have who have been good theologians in the in the sense that they have tried to be fair.

 

They’ve tried to they’ve tried to be good scholars and they go all the way back. Some of these Muslim theologians, they have, you know, they’ve built on Plato and Aristotle, and they’ve confronted them. We sometimes forget the fact that Islam was in Europe and was getting along quite well with, you know, up until 15th century when they were kicked out of Spain, in 1492. They confronted Western theologians and philosophy. And in some ways, orthodox Islam has rejected philosophy, but they have been afraid too.

 

And some many of them have been afraid of of the influence of the, I guess, the lack of morality in the west. And so they’ve reacted against, against the west in that sense. I I think of one philosopher by the name of Mohammed Iqbal, who was the father of Pakistan. He said, something to the effect, god save us from the west and its ways. In other words, he felt that, the influence of the west was morally not completely good for Muslims.

 

So in other words, they’ve they’ve looked at this cuff, and they’ve they’ve struggled with it. Now now the image that you are, portraying, I think, of Muslims is very different kinda than than what is in my mind. Uh-huh. It sounds like you’re talking about Muslims in the past as being like this united front, in the way they’re thinking and developing their thoughts and and theologies. But today, I just have this idea of, like, a scattered Islam, a scattered, theology just with with so many different extremes all over the the world, actually, because there’s so many Muslims.

 

Mhmm. Mhmm. It just seems like it doesn’t match up with, what they used to be. It what what changed? What was different?

 

Yes. Well, I I didn’t mean to give the impression that they were united in the past. What I meant to say was that they have argued over issues, like moderation, like extremism. In other words, you had, Muslims are, discussing actually violence and, and and they they discuss things like, what you call, predestination. I was gonna say, do they talk about Arminianism and Calvinism the way we do?

 

Yes. Exactly. They that that’s a good question. Oh, they they do? You’re not kidding.

 

No. They don’t use that term, but, yeah, free will versus the sovereign. Yes. In fact, they’ve had a great argument in the past. They fought over this, and so we don’t wanna be too critical.

 

But basically, they have argued over predeterminism or predestination versus free will. And some Muslims by the name of Methazilites in the past, they have said in the 10th century, they said that, we have free will. But eventually, others by the name of Asherites eventually won the argument. And today, by and large, Muslims put a whole lot of emphasis on predestination, predeterminism, and the truth is that it is very chronic. In other words, it’s it’s basically it’s mostly the emphasis in the Quran.

 

However, there are verses there in the Quran that do suggest, that there is some free will involved. We can choose. So so you’re saying that, Islam looks very different today than it was in the past and that it could have changed. It could have been No. I’m not saying that.

 

I’m just saying that Muslims have argued about the same things we have. Okay. We have a Calvinist, Armenian dis disagreement. In other words, Calvinist would say, put a lot of emphasis on the predestination Right. God can control.

 

Right. Whereas the Armenians put all the emphasis or a lot of emphasis on free will of man. Muslims have argued about the same issues. The only thing is that in Islam, the Asherites, which have they’ve emphasized the predeterminism Right. Predestination, they’re the ones that have basically won.

 

So Sunni Muslims today are very much into God is in control. God plans everything. Uh-huh. He, has planned our will, wills. He plans good and and and and he actually chooses those who will believe and will not believe.

 

Now let’s let’s face it. They are very good at using 2 expressions, which is if God wills. And the second one is, God has willed it. So those just those two expressions tell you a lot about Muslims, that by and large, it’s heavy into predestination. God, according to the Quran, leads some astray.

 

He leaves some straying. He, lead he guides some, but he’s the one that decides. Be before the Asharites, kind of brought their influence Right. Were they I mean, obviously not Armenian, but were they closer to the emphasis on free will? Yes.

 

Yes. The the Matanzalites emphasized that, the free will, and they were actually were more rationalist. They were they were it isn’t really so logical to think that God plans everything, but basically, that’s what most Muslims today would say that, you know, God plans everything. And it’s true that you can find those verses in the Quran. There’s preponderance of verses in the Quran that would give you the impression.

 

It says over and over again, God leads whom he will. And he, he leads lets others go astray. He guides whom he will. And it says, for instances in the Quran that he will fill hell with men and with jinn, as if, you know, it’s all god’s will. That’s a basic difference in Christianity where we know, we believe, and we preach that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

In Islam, apparently, he is willing that some would perish. God will some to go to hell. So the show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors. And this week’s sponsors are Zweimer Center. Zweimer Center.

 

Zweimer Center. The Wamers Center. Zweymer Center. And what does the Zweymer Center do? Talks about lessons and and tells them on the computer that we love you.

 

Very nice. The Swimmer Center equips the church to reach Muslims. The Swimmer Center has been educating people about reaching Muslims before it was cool. It sounds like what you’re saying though in the past that the Muslims at least got together to Right. Right.

 

To discuss or argue these points. Do you find that that happens today? And is it equally represented by, all of the different groups of Islam? No. No.

 

You’re right. That in the past, they argued about this in the right way. They fought about it and they discussed it. And then, basically, they shut out people like the Methazolites. You don’t have Methazolites today.

 

Methazolites are basically gone, but, the product the the real strong new today is heavy into predestination, predeterminism, and they find enough basis for it in the Quran. I don’t know if that makes sense or not. No. It makes sense. And I think the important thing that we need to realize is that this happens right from the very get go in Islam, that there is already debate.

 

And so for the first, you know, 300 years of the church, there’s a lot of debate about the divinity of Christ, about the nature of Christ, you know, about the free will of man and all of these debates that go on and on throughout church history. Similar debates are happening within Islam, not particularly about Jesus so much. They kinda had their mind made up pretty early on that I’m assuming. But in some ways, there have been some shifts in theology even regarding Jesus. Correct?

 

I mean, there was the at least the option early in Islam that Jesus might have died. Right. But nowadays, no. He did not die on the cross. That’s right.

 

Islam in that sense is hardened in a very much of a sense. And if you want to in discussion, we can also talk about some major differences between Sunnis and Shia. I don’t know if that’s interested if of interest to your reading or listening audience. A lot of people have been asking questions about that, but can we do that in a podcast? Is that I mean, is that is that even possible?

 

It is possible, but it’s your choice when to bring it up. Well, I mean, at least give us the the rundown on what are the basic differences. What what really caused the split between the Sunni and Shia early in Islam? Yeah. That was the first that was the first thing that actually, broke the community apart.

 

And it happened just after Mohammed died in 632 when they began to ask who is going to be a success his successor. That’s a good question. In other words, it’s a question of leadership. Who is gonna be the caliph? And, some said that the caliph has to be a relative of Muhammad.

 

They said that the person that should be the next leader is, would be Ali, who was the actually his son-in-law married to his daughter Fatima. Others said no. Ali, we don’t like him. We want to choose somebody else who’s a, a born leader, somebody who’s a a good head head good head on his shoulders. And they chose a guy by the name of Abu Bakr, who was the father-in-law of Mohammed, and he was the caliph for a while, couple of years.

 

And then somebody else came in for another 10 years. And then thirdly, somebody came for 12 years. And finally finally finally in 6, 56, finally, Ali gets chosen. But you see, again, the difference the main difference between Shia and Sunni is the question over leadership. Because, the Shiites felt, and they still do today, that the only person that’s qualified, to lead the Muslim community is someone who has Muhammad’s is connected to Muhammad through, he’s a he’s a descendant of Muhammad.

 

Whereas the Sunnis said, we don’t care about that. And so this division that started back there in the 7th century grew and grew and grew. Then after a while, you get theological differences. But I think the if we could just keep that in mind that it was a question of leadership, that’s what broke them apart, and that’s what, caused Iraq to be such an explosive place, and that’s what’s trouble with Iran today and Saudi Arabia and all of those things. It’s the same old fight.

 

So in that sense, Warren, help us understand what happened. I I’m sure it’s complicated, but is there some things that we can look at specifically? We have the first 300 years of Islam. We have a pretty incredible movement across all of North Africa up into Spain, across the entire Byzantine Empire. And we have some of the best scholarship being produced by Persians and Arabs under these Islamic Dynasties.

 

And then and something radical happens in the 10th century where it seems like everything sort of stops. Right. What do you think happened? Why did it all stop and seem to go backwards from that point? Well, the modernist, the late Fazlur Rahman, who has written several books including, one is Islam and then Islam and Modernity, plus a few other books.

 

He says that Islam made the big mistake of closing the gates. He’s not the only Muslim that said that. In other words, they they basically closed the gate on Islamic law. They quit thinking, and, he is a marvelous fellow, this this fellow. He taught, he got kicked out of Pakistan for his views because he’s a moderate moderate, years years ago.

 

And he came over here and he taught in the University of Chicago. I have more respect for him. In fact, just listen to that fellow and reading his works, sort of raises your view of Muslims. He’s an excellent thinker, and, he’s not one of these narrow minded bigots like we some often think of Muslims. We have the idea that they’re all hardliners perhaps, and and but that’s not true.

 

Rahman is a good thinker, and he’s marvelous, and and, he thinks, that Islamic education he doesn’t even use the word education. He calls it intellectualism. And he says, Muslims are gonna have to start using their minds, and they’re gonna have to start thinking things through. He says for the last 500 years, they’ve been closed, stagnant. They’ve been, not making a a progress.

 

He’s, disappointed with Islamic education, the stagnation, the, just a sort of a closed system. And he and yet, on the other hand, Rahman is hopeful that they can change, that, Muslims can come out of this demise and start thinking again, like they did, during the middle ages when they led the way in medicine and science and, mathematics and made discoveries in agriculture and optometry and things like that. Muslims, I mean, have done some tremendous things in the past, but the trouble is, is that 500 years ago, they seem to go into sort of a, a dip and they stayed there. And that’s the unfortunate thing about Islamic history, that that that this is not a criticism from the outside. It’s the Muslims themselves recognize it.

 

And, Rahman is is one of my favorites. I can’t but help, but seek some comparisons with Christianity. Uh-huh. A lot of people would be saying the same thing about Christians. You you know, used to be at the forefront, you know, science and and research and all those kind of things.

 

And now, all of a sudden, they’ve stopped using their brains. You know, at least invent you know, like these, actually I don’t wanna name names because it’s just offensive. But, you know, like in the same way. And then you have fundamentalist Christians who are attacking anybody else that would would try to, you know, start, you know, thinking intellectually or in intelligently using logic and those kind of things. So it is it is interesting.

 

I I I only bring that up because I think about, how, you know, how, this relates to us, you know, even as as Christians Right. And the struggles that we have, even as, you know, as people of faith. And when I think about, you know, some of the things that we talked about the with the the people that came and they argued these points and how our history is the same way with Christians, You know, these councils in the past, Nicaea and such, where they would argue these points. Alright. This week’s sponsors.

 

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Real world review. Yeah. It’s it. CIU educates people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. It is Well, I think it’s true that Muslims are Christians have somehow pulled away sometimes, pulled away from, engagement And even the fundamentalists themselves in some ways have have pulled away thinking that this was the way to solve problems when in fact they should have remained part of the discussion, and and engaged with the world in Christian philosophy.

 

I I could say another thing is that that, when you think back in the history of Islam, there was a fellow by the name of, Al Ghazali who died in 11/11, and it’s an easy date to remember. Al Ghazali is perhaps the greatest Muslim theologian philosopher in the history of Islam. And he made a decision in his life where he sort of, he he rejected philosophy or rationalism, and he said that, the way to go is through Sufism and one thing or another. And it seemed that after that, Islam started to go downhill. I don’t know, but, Al Ghazali was brilliant, the the greatest Muslim theologian.

 

He seemed to make a decision that helped to close the doors. However, there have been since that time, of course, some brilliant Muslim theologians and I think we need to know them. We need to know people like, Ibni Sina whose name in Europe was, Avicenna, who was brilliant, in in medicine and philosophy. We need to know that that Islam has this. They have, they have moderates like sir Sayed Ahmed Khan in India who tried to bring the British and the the fundamentalist I mean, the the the Muslims together.

 

He he advocated Western education. Yeah. I mean, there’s all kinds of names back there that were were moderate, and they had moderate interpretations of the Quran. They weren’t, all fundamentalists. There is a fellow in, in the history of Islam called, ibnat Miya.

 

And, he was a hardliner. He was a fundamentalist. But he wasn’t the only Muslim theologian. He was 1. And that is the guy that influenced Saudi Arabia.

 

He was the one that influenced guys like Sayed Qutb, the fellow who seems to be the inspiration for terrorists today. He wrote the book Milestones and, became a martyr. He was killed for it for his radicalism in 1960 6. Well, Tamia is back there, and he was a fundamentalist. He was a, he was a fundamentalist and he influenced people.

 

That’s true. But but, you know, there are other Muslim theologians who were not like that. They were they were, reasonable. They were moderate. And I think we need to be aware of that in in our understanding of Islam.

 

We most people don’t they don’t know that. They just they just pick up the Quran and they don’t recognize that there are different interpretations different ways to read it. And I think we should realize that people haven’t always interpreted the Quran in that way, one way. It sounds almost like you’re saying that we would, bring these moderates up to bring them to the light as far as, our understanding. And what does that do for our average listener?

 

Do you think that is a conflict a little bit, for what we believe, by kind of like highlighting a Muslim, I guess, in in Well, certainly supporting them and being aware of them. I mean, when you listen to, some of the comments, in our country, in North America, in Europe, you would never think that there is such a thing as a modern Muslim. Or you would think that the only Muslim that there is, if he’s really a true Muslim, he is a violent one. He’s a fundamentalist. He’s one who, who advocates violence and Jihad and all that kind of stuff.

 

The truth is that there are moderates and they’re speaking today. They may not be speaking, as boldly as we would like them or as clearly, but in some ways, you know, it is a little dangerous. Warren, wasn’t there a recent meeting in Saudi Arabia with the the scholars to discuss, radicalism, to discuss ISIS Yes. And all of these things. And one of the calls that kinda came forward was a need for reform in education and in the Islamic schools and and training programs and that this is an internal debate that’s it’s not going away anytime soon and they’re working through this and they’re quite divided.

 

Yes. I all these issues. I think it’s, it’s, it’s a good sign. In other words, that they are talking about it. Whether or not they they can handle it and succeed, we don’t know.

 

I mean, we don’t know what’s gonna happen with their internal discussions. They’re trying to. They’re talking about it. Whether or not Islam can change today given the dynamics of chaos and confusion and the, violence of some extremists. We don’t know exactly what they’re gonna do or how it’s gonna turn out.

 

All we do know is that, I would I would argue that we do know that god is in control. He’s sovereign, and I often think of the verse that he’s making the wrath of man to praise him. So in the midst of this terrible turmoil that Muslims are in, fighting among themselves, disagreeing among themselves, God is is busy saving people like never before, Muslims. So that’s the only thing that I can cling to. I don’t know what’s gonna happen with, as far as their own disputes.

 

With the media, it sounds like we emphasize obviously all the terrorist attacks, which, you know, rightfully so, that is news. Right. But in in the same sense, do you think that if the media highlighted some of these moderates and heard what they had to say, gave them a voice, maybe a broader voice, do you think that would help, in in changing, like, the minds of No. They they’ve tried. I mean, for instance, there’s Raza Aslan Right.

 

Who’s a Who’s talking to people for. Right. Right. He’s a he’s a moderate. Yeah.

 

He lots of things you like that he says. He he comes across. He’s cool. He comes across well. He’s cool.

 

He’s a cool looking guy. He’s a cool yes. He’s a good speaker. He did write a book on Jesus that I didn’t like because it was just a liberal view of Jesus. Zealot, wasn’t it?

 

Zealot. Zealot. The zealot. Yes. Because it’s just liberal Christianity.

 

But but when he talks about Islam, he does a good job. And I think that I think that he does get some press. But, you know, overwhelming, like you’ve said, overwhelming news is is to pick out the the bad stuff, and to fill the the airwaves with that. What are they doing? And and and, and and also then, to get behind it and to say that, oh, that’s all really that the Quran teaches, and that’s the theology and and and, and so then that fear drives fear of Islamic law and fears of Sharia and all of this kind of stuff.

 

So that really, often it’s it’s filled with ignorance. It’s misinformation or lack of information and a whole bunch of experts, who think that they know all about Islam. Alright. So this show wouldn’t be possible without sponsors. And at this point in the show is where if you wanna partner with us, we would put your ad.

 

So if you wanna be a part of the show, you wanna partner with us, you like what we’re doing, you wanna be on our team, what have you, bringing this show to the world, then email us and let us know. Alright. So William Lane Craig says, that moderate Islam is to Islam what nominal Christianity, cultural Christianity is to Christianity. And that’s, you know, some of the things that we’ve been hearing a lot lately, like, Sam Harris. Remember when, he was, had that debate?

 

I wonder, is that true? Is it is, can we measure because you’re talking about theology here. Can we measure nominal Christianity with, the the moderate Muslim? Yeah. This seems to be a theme.

 

Like, everybody makes the case that the the real Muslims are ISIS and the nominal Muslims are all the moderates that you see walking around. So how how do we respond to this? Is he right? Is, what should our viewpoint be from somebody that has actually studied Islamic theology and teaches this at the university level? Yeah.

 

I mean, William, Lane Craig is brilliant. Highly respect him. He’s a great thinker. He has a terrific mind. But I don’t think it’s true that, you can like a moderate Muslim to a nominal Christian or a cultural Christian because basically when you say nominal Christian you mean that there’s not really a Christian just a Christian in name.

 

I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think that’s fair. I don’t think it’s historically true for one thing because as we’ve just been talking about, you know, over the past hour or so, when you look at Islamic theology, the history of Islam, you’ve got cases of moderate Muslims, sir Sayed Ahmed Khan in India who was moderate, or, a guy like the name of Mohammed Iqbal who was the father of Pakistan. He was a moderate, or, Abdul, Mohammed Abdul in Egypt. These guys are moderate Muslims.

 

Now what are you gonna say? Are you gonna say that, that they weren’t really Muslims? They they claimed to be Muslims. They believed in the Quran. They followed the Quran.

 

And and, no. I I I I can’t agree that that’s true be, because I think if you look at history, moderates have been there. It is true that, in some case, you know, by and large, fundamentals have won out, but it doesn’t mean that by by what I mean by the fundamental have won out, I mean that, fundamentalist theology has seemed to have won the argument. In other words, that they are, dominant today, but the moderates are still there. They don’t have a strong voice.

 

They do speak. You have moderates today. I’ve, met before mentioned the name Fazlur Rahman who is a moderate. He’s he’s passed away now, but he did get kicked out of Pakistan. Are you gonna say that he is not a Muslim?

 

I mean, it’s it’s like saying that the Shiites are not Muslims. It’s like saying that, anybody who’s not, Sunni Muslim is is is not a Muslim. I think that’s unfair. I think it’s it’s really the what the hardliners are saying. It’s what the, the Taliban would say.

 

It’s what ISIS would say. It’s what, Boko Haram would say, but it’s not true. It’s not fair, and it’s not, it’s not the thing that we should be echoing. We should be aware of the fact that there’s a variety of Muslims. They, have different views and different, viewpoints.

 

And I think, I think we have to recognize that, and we should support it. I’m on we can always feel that the moderates should be speaking out more strongly, But we have to be keep in mind that, that the moderates are sometimes afraid, I mean, to to speak too strongly. So that’s all I can say is that I don’t agree with that that particular point of view, but I sometimes think that that’s what we want to hear. Well, I think that’s what sells. That’s what sells in the media.

 

I mean, I think the moderates every time they try and speak, they don’t get, a voice. They don’t get any coverage. Right. And the unfortunate thing, I mean, it’s not just, you know, Christians who would say this, but sometimes the non Christians would say it too that the real Muslim is a violent one. The real Muslim is is one who, who takes the hard line.

 

I don’t think it’s fair because, it’s almost like saying that all those Muslims who, who advocate warmth and, it’s it’s it’s saying that the Sufis are not Muslims for example. No. It’s not fair. It’s it’s an extreme view and I reject it. Yeah.

 

It’s it’s pretty simplistic, especially when you look at all of the different religions around the world, particularly even in the 1st century with Judaism, you had zealots, you had Pharisees, you had Sadducees, you had all of these different representations of Judaism, and there was disagreements about resurrection. Would it be bodily? Would it be spiritual? There was all these disagreements happening and all this diversity within the 1st century of Judaism, and then you go into Christianity, it gets even more complex. And then somehow Islam comes on the scene, and we’re looking at Islam and saying, well, no, there’s really only one true interpretation, and it’s the radicals.

 

And the irony is that the Christians are siding with the radicals, and I just find that just I mean, there is reason for it. There is the abrogation principle that, some of the the later verses that Mohammed, was inspired to write supposedly are more anti, stronger against Christians, stronger against the people of book, of the book and so on. That’s true. But the moderates would argue for another interpretation of the Quran, and that is possible. I don’t think this might sound radical to some people, but I I don’t think that the Quran in itself is a violent book.

 

I think its interpreters can be violent. That might sound like a pretty extreme Yeah. That’s that’s gonna be considered radical. So you’re gonna have to explain that in a little more detail. Yes.

 

Well, just what I’m just trying to say is that you can find, verses in the Quran that are quite warm and fuzzy. But you can find, a lot of verses too that are quite, violence. So I guess what I’m trying to say is that, there are different interpretations. In fact, I have a book, written by Helmut Gatje, g a t j e, who was German and he has the name of his book is the Quran, I think it’s chronic exegesis, isn’t it? Yeah.

 

Chronic exegesis, but then there is something at the end that caught, about interpretations. So I think that we have to admit that there are other interpretations in the Quran. It’s not just, the violent approach. And whether or not the moderates will gain ground, in the in the battle that is going on is another question. I don’t know that they will, but they’re there and I would root for them and I would give them permission to to to claim to be Muslims.

 

I wouldn’t say that they’re nominal, like, nominal Christians, I wouldn’t say that. That doesn’t seem that seems to be a judgment call as to the nature of Islam. And would you want to make any judgment call? People want to make judgment calls on this. This is something I hear, I mean, almost every church I go to, Warren, somebody says, well, you don’t understand the true nature of Islam.

 

Almost as though I’ve been napping and somehow missed out on the true nature. And and this concept, is it possible that we see this concept because we, try to view Islam through the lens in which we view our own faith? Exactly. Exactly. I mean, the, it’s not it’s not right and I think the best approach here is that one we’ve been talking about today is the history of Islamic struggles, the nature of Muslim theologians and what they’ve talked about and the positions they’ve taken.

 

It’s certainly you have to look at Islam in all of its history, 1500 years to to to to to say, I’m not, you know, I’m not as, an exceptional scholar of Islam, but I have studied it. I’ve looked at it for the last 46 years. And I think what’s helped me the most from a personal point of view is that I’ve lived with Muslims, in Pakistan and South Asia for 23 years, and this helped me to see Muslims as people, not just to see them as somebody over there, who is trying to kill me. So I think that has helped to live with Muslims and still to have Muslim friends and to understand them, and to see their concerns, their sentiments, their love, their acceptance, their, openness, even their forgiveness and their generosity. When you see Muslim like this, what are you gonna say?

 

Well, they’re not Muslims? You can’t say that because if you do it, it is a terrible judgment call. I think the best thing we can do is have Muslim friends. I would wonder about some of these people who make these strong statements about Islam. Do they really have Muslim friends?

 

Warren, I wonder if it’s the common denominator. Maybe they knew one Muslim somewhere, I don’t know, but I do think that there is some something there about not having known Muslims as people and trying to say that, hey, we just look at the text and this is what the text says and Right. And there’s no such text apart from an interpreter when it comes to Islam. There are people that read the text, interpret it, and live their lives and we have to know Muslims if we’re gonna make these hard line statements about Muslims. Yeah.

 

I think that’s true. Yes. I think we would feel the same way about people that study Christianity. I mean, goodness, how many people are out there writing about Christians that have never opened the Bible or met a Christian in their life? Well, that’s true.

 

Yes. And it’s frustrating. So I think that’s a good one to, to end it on, and, we appreciate you being here, and, thanks so much for helping bring a new perspective to this, ongoing debate about the true nature of Islam and looking at it from a perspective of Islamic theology. Thanks for inviting me.