Here starts the auto-generated transcription of The Heart and Mind of a Muslim with Dr. Matthew Stone:
It is a warning. Welcome to the truth about Muslims podcast, the official podcast the Swimmer Center For Muslim Studies, where we help to educate you beyond the media. Here are your hosts, Howard and Trevor. Welcome to the Truth About Muslims podcast. Episode 8.
Episode 8. We’ve got a great show today, but before we do that, let’s do our sponsors. Yes. Wiz Wimmer Center for Muslim Studies. The Wimmer Center equips, the Christian church to understand Muslims so that they can effectively reach them with the gospel.
Right. And Columbia International University. Columbia educates students from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ. Glory. Yep.
That’s ciu.eduandswimmercenter.com. Right. So today, what do we got? Episode 8. We’ve got an interview with, author Matthew Stone.
Excellent book. And a funny guy. Very funny. Right. Reaching the Heart and Mind of Muslims.
That sounds exactly up our alley. Yeah. Matthew has, 2 PhDs. 2. Right.
He has more degrees than the thermometer. You heard that correctly. 2 PhDs. He’s got one in philosophy of religion specifically, focused on Islam as well. He has a a PhD in psychology.
Right. And he’s also worked with Muslims. Right? Yes. Yes.
He has. He, well, we’ll let him tell you. He has. We’ll let you tell, let him tell about his story, and we’re gonna have a, a phone interview where he’s gonna share with a little bit about his experience. So without further ado, let’s get to the interview with Matthew Stone.
Okay. So we’re here, with, Matthew Stone. He is the author of a new book called Reaching the Heart and Mind of Muslims and I’ve personally read the book. I think it’s excellent and to be quite honest this is the this is the one book whenever I’m lecturing at a church and somebody says okay kind of break all this down for me in the form of a recommendation of reading, a reading list. And I say, okay, the first book you need to get in, Matthew, I’m sure you think I’m really kidding here, but I’m not, is actually your book reaching the heart and mind of Muslims.
So we’re gonna And Don’t don’t worry. We’re gonna edit that pause. Go ahead. I mean, I’ll use that for my, obituary. Okay.
Let’s let’s let’s let’s get going. So Okay. Sorry. All right. So, we’re really excited to have you on the phone here, Matthew.
And, could you just share with us a little bit about, why you wrote the book and, what is in the book? Why should people read it? Wow. Thanks, Trevor. I, wrote it in in it’s kind of funny because I wasn’t thinking about writing it, but I was talking to Warren Larson, an old friend, and I was complaining because I couldn’t find a book or a course in Muslim Studies that would kinda cover what I wanted to cover.
I mean, there there are lots of good books out there, but I wanted something that really, went beyond the usual approach of let’s try to find the weaknesses within Islam, right, and then exploit those rather than, you know, loving Muslims. Or for me, even more importantly, and I think this is a large part of the focus of the book particularly from the very beginning, was let’s quit thinking about Islam and treating it as its its one big thing. Instead of doing that, let’s look at individual Muslims and then collections of Muslims in groups where those groups may have differing interpretations of the Quran and Hadith, the sayings of the prophets, so that we begin to look at the diversity that exists within, you know, among Muslims rather than trying to paint with overly broad brushstrokes and make all kinds of errors in assuming that we know what individual muscles believe when in fact they they don’t, which we unfortunately see so much of in the, in the media. Right. So we’ve been talking about these these kind of topics on the show about how not to just compartmentalize these Muslims into one type of belief, like, for instance, ISIS.
So when you have a group of people that are so diverse in their beliefs, even when it comes from one text like the Quran, how do we as people learn how to, know how to deal with Muslims or reach out to Muslims even though they’re so diverse? Like, what what what would you say, our game plan could be? Because I you know, I think handles are pretty helpful, when saying, okay, this is what this people group believes. But, but we we kind of have this issue. We have this problem that the Muslims are so much diverse than that.
Right. I think part of the problem is language, and and when we have a term, we begin to treat that term as the reality rather than the thing to which a points. So when we have a a term like Islam, we treat Islam as the reality of this big thing rather than individual Muslims are the the reality. And for me, I think it is greatly liberating, that that fact, because because you can’t know what every Muslim believes or even groups of Muslims believe or even the diverse opinions within within groups of Muslims. It forces you to deal with the Muslim who is in front of you and to very very much be astute, listen to them, and let their explanation of what they believe and what they do be your, be your guide.
And then, you know, if you need to generalize that a little bit, you can generalize to that particular group of Muslim, but always be cautious that you’re not overgeneralizing that. But what but what we hear in the in the media and what we’re even hearing sometimes from the academic community is that there is, quote unquote a true nature of Islam. And so how would you deal with the Right. Question of what is the true nature of Islam? I mean, they do have a Quran.
They do have a set of beliefs. What would that produce in your mind? Right. Yeah. For me, that’s utter ignorance, that Wow.
That’s awesome. To be I I you know, to be generous is I think that, that’s exactly pointing out my point. That kind of essentialist view that there’s an essence to to Islam is just, so clearly wrong given the diversity. And the trouble is when you begin to say, oh, there is a single essence, and I can determine what that essence is by me picking up the Quran and the Hadith and reading those, then we make major mistakes in the order on the border on prejudice and discrimination, because it ignores the lived reality. The lived reality of Muslim is that there have been multiple interpretations of the Quran.
How who are we to just say which among those interpretations is the true interpretation? We don’t have access to that when Muslims themselves disagree. Right. The same thing with, the same thing with Hadith. I think it’s grossly arrogant for Christians or the media or whomever to say I have it figured out.
You know, I don’t want as a Christian, I don’t like it when a Muslim comes to me and says, this is what your Bible teaches, and then what they say does not correspond to how I see the Bible, or this is the significance of Jesus, when I don’t see the significance of Jesus that way. I think it’s arrogant of them, and it’s arrogant of us to do the same thing. I think it’s better if we acknowledge our ignorance and quit talking about essences and listen to that precious person who is in front of us and what they believe. Now I know I said that very stridently, but I do that deliberately because I think it really gets in the way and sabotages us in our relationships with people and with Muslims. When we assume, oh, ISIS represents the true Islam.
The peaceful Muslims are not living the true Islam. That’s nonsense. Right. That’s what Sam Harris says. Interpretation.
You know? There are multiple interpretations of that book. The Quran is just a book. You know, it’s just sitting there. It requires interpretation.
And historically, you know, it has been interpreted in multiple ways, and it’s just and it’s interpreted in multiple ways today, no different than the Bible, you know? That’s why we have so many different denominations because people choose to interpret it in so many diverse ways, you know, which is confusing for Muslims. And, and then they seize upon one and say that’s the essence, then that doesn’t represent what the vast majority of Christians even believe. So, you know, apologize if it was a little strident, but it’s a bit frustrating to to listen to that, because I think it sabotages us, and when it sabotages us, then we fail in reaching out to precious So so you say that it it sabotages us and actually, sabotages our witness as well or even our desire to witness. Could you could you build on that a little bit?
Help us understand what are the things that we’re doing to self sabotage before we can even be able to get to the gospel with Muslims? Right. For example, if if you assume that, you know, let me give you an example. I hear it over and over in the media more that leans towards thoughts, but the notion that Muslims practice Taqiyyah. You know what I mean?
That’s just simulation or that they lie. So explain that term, Taqiyyah. Yeah. Taqiyyah would be where a Muslim could say something that wasn’t true, a lie in you know, and typically, although that is practiced only about Shia and not all Shia agree completely on that, Sunnis, it’s it’s not practiced. It’s actually condemned largely by Sunnis.
And and yeah, when you hear, you know, the media talk, it’s like, oh, it’s practiced by all Muslims, and the effect of that is, therefore, you know, as a country, we can’t trust them. We can’t negotiate. They don’t have the cause of why. They’re liars, and and that has hugely practical and negative implications in how we approach someone if we think they’re just gonna lie to us about what they truly believe. When as you dig down and you you you’re dealing with an individual, you know, Muslim and talk to them, you’ll hear many of them say that that’s, you know, it’s, it that is not what we what we believe.
Of course, the trouble with that is that then the media go, oh, well, they’re practicing talking about here right now with me. You know? It gets to this paranoia where you can’t trust them at all. The trouble then is then you don’t approach them. You have no interaction with them at all, and I don’t find that a very helpful way to to talk to someone about the Lord, you know.
Right. If you can’t trust them. Well, that makes sense. Shoot yourself in the foot. That makes sense why that we talked about a representative from Oklahoma saying that you cannot trust anyone who says they’re Muslim, that you should be weary of anybody that says they’re Muslim.
So he’s operating out of that foundational belief that says that he’s probably lying, and I can’t actually ever know who’s telling the truth. He might be a terrorist. He might not. I I have no idea. And so Right.
He’s weary of every Muslim. Yeah. I mean, look. I’m a New Yorker. Sometimes I can get to thinking about the South in that way.
It doesn’t particularly help me. Right? Hey, now. I’m dealing with people from the South. And then I realized when I talked to them that some of them are actually quite nice.
I’d appreciate that. Southern hospitality. Yeah. And probably the same way with people in the south. But I think in a really concrete way, it’s just very it’s really sabotaging.
But I think deep down, often that’s motivated because people feel utterly inadequate about reaching out to Muslims. Well, acknowledge that. Acknowledge that you feel inadequate. Acknowledge that you’re scared. There’s nothing wrong with that, you know?
And begin to deal with that in healthy ways, and that’s a large part of what I deal with in the book about the beliefs and the thoughts that we have that get in the way, that cause us to have fear and anxiety about reading reaching out to Muslims. There are ways to overcome that. There are that are biblically based, you know, and that’s really what I wanted to address because often when when we Christians look at reaching out to Muslims, we began to see the Muslim as the problem, when really a lot of times it has to do with the way that we’re thinking and the emotions that come up within us that are really problematical. And, if we don’t deal with that, we we are missing an opportunity to witness to people who are who are loved by God and who who need the gospel as much as anybody else. Right.
I find it interesting that, the solutions that you kinda put forth has for our listenership, at least, that they have to go and meet Muslims. They have to go and and and have relationships and because I I don’t know. I just feel like, it’s so easy for everyone to kinda fall into the us versus them. This is what they all are. Yeah.
And then it causes division. You know, there’s no way to to reconcile it. But you’re saying they need to go and become students. They need to go and sit with these Muslims and become friends with them, have relationships with them. That’s that’s that’s, that’s that seems really tough for, a lot of people.
What where do you why do you think that is? Why do you think that we have such a hard time, not character characterizing, Muslims and and, people of Islamic faith? Well, it wouldn’t be the first group because I look you know, as we look through the history of the US and or any country. I mean, it’s not the US is bad, but we go through these different historical times when we demonize a particular group. We did it with the Chinese.
Right. We did it with the Italians. We did it with the Jews. We did it with the Irish. We did it with the African Americans, you know, and now it’s largely the Arabs, and those prejudices get supported by the media.
And I think it really because we have this deep down fear or anxiety about the other. And and I think a healthier way would be, let’s begin to deal with that anxiety and overcome that. So why why do why do we have why do we have such a fear of the other? I mean, this seems to be what Paul’s dealing with in the New Testament as well in the Jerusalem Council. You know, we have Gentiles coming to faith, and it’s almost like, so can they come to faith 1?
And then 2, what should that look like? How should they worship? This is a human problem, but, you know, with your background, I’m just kinda curious why is that? Well, because I think humans are essentially crazy. That’s your professional opinion.
But Christians because you that shouldn’t be a big surprise because of the fall. Right? Right. And so We have a right. Emotions are gonna be out of whack.
Our thoughts are gonna be out of whack. And I think when we begin to think in really unhelpful unhelpful ways like, I must be absolutely safe. I must know, you know, I, I it would be horrible if, I made a mistake in witnessing to these to these Muslims. You can’t trust them. They’re terrible, horrible, and awful.
Those kinds of irrational beliefs, you know, are not just applied toward Muslims, but all kinds of all kinds of situations. People have those thoughts about heights. They have those, you know, about driving on on the freeway. You know, and and the same unhelpful beliefs can get applied to Muslims and cause the self sabotaging behaviors. And I think there’s this you know, that’s why I love the example of Jesus so much when he just, through his actions, counters that, you know, with the, you know, with the, you know, people from different groups who are even seen as, you know, intrinsically unclean, and Jesus chooses, you know, to ignore that and through his actions, show the irrationality of those of those beliefs.
I mean, he he he’s just such a wonderful wonderful witness to how we can be. You know? He certainly didn’t embrace fear towards dealing with the other. No. I mean, if you think about it, just his interactions with a leper, a woman who’s been bleeding, Samaritan, you know, people that are unclean, people that the whole society has kind of put into this category of the other.
And Jesus crosses cultural boundaries, religious boundaries. I mean, just goes all the way over into reaching, you know, non Jews, Samaritan woman, a leper. I mean, you could just go down the list and trace all the interactions Jesus has. So you’re saying that he’s the model for what we as Christians should be, considering when we look at Muslims? I think so.
I mean, it would be nice if Christians use Jesus as a model, you know. It’s not a bad idea. Everything out. Not a bad idea. It’s not a novel idea.
You know what I mean? And so so I do think we need to get serious about that. And the other thing that I really like about Jesus is he was actually, if we talk about being easy or difficult on people, in some ways, he was quite easy on the people who didn’t know the significance of him and didn’t know really what it meant to believe in god and didn’t even understand the full nature of god. It is the ones that supposedly knew. Right?
The leaders that he was the harshest on. On the other hand, he has, you know, people who who had self defined themselves in ways that were limiting, like the man with his mat by the well. You know? And he’s like, get up. Take your mat.
Get out of here. You know? Go do something. That kind of see, that’s what he’s saying to us. Come on.
Whatever self limiting belief that you have that is per that’s causing you to just sit by the well rather than get up and go out there and reach Muslims and everyone else. Change that. Get up. Go go do something. Don’t wait for you to feel secure and safe and that you need to know everything.
Get up and go, you know? Can we talk about the media a little bit? It just seems like with CNN and Fox, liberal, conservative, kind of, this polarization that’s happening in the media, it seems like we’re inundated more than ever. I know that there’s been, like, in newspapers back in the day with, you know, the Chinese that coming over to build the railroad and the character as characterization of them. But it just seems like we have it infinitely more.
That’s just like, you know, like, I’m a youth pastor. And what I notice is my youth, you know, I have, like, 30 minutes to an hour a week. But then during the week, they have all of these influences that are kinda coming in and preaching to them their own messages. It just seems like with the media today that they’re, they’re receiving the the our listenership, the general Christian population in the US are receiving this huge amount of information or negative information against Muslims, against Islam. And, and so, you know, they it’s it’s I think it’s really hard for them to kinda rise out of that and and be Christ to them because they just keep hearing this message over and over, brainwashing.
Yeah. I I I yeah. And I think it’s even more complicated because often the church sides with one branch of the media, etcetera, with one message. Right. And and and really does not take up the responsibility of looking beyond those messages to the voice of Christ.
You know? But that’s that’s a scary thing if we’re if we’re taking sort of our theological cues through media outlets and is that that’s possibly happening, right, when it comes to Muslims? I I do think that’s the case. I mean, you I don’t like the word liberal and conservative because I think yeah. But that you know, I mean, because then I’m doing the very same thing that I say not to do with multiple.
Right. Simplifying. Let me commit that sin right now. Okay. Do it.
Yeah. And and let’s say those, you know, those churches that maybe a bit more liberal, will will, you know, they might gravitate more toward MSNBC or CNN or something like that Right. In VR, and then you’ve got the conservative churches that have baptized, Fox News, etcetera. Right? Right.
And so they see it as the the trouble is that, you know, we we we by wedding with 1 or the other, we don’t not navigate how Jesus might view the truth in in these different particular situations, and I know that’s the case because some of those media messages would be what you need to do is fear those people. What you need to do is hate those people, and that is not the message of Jesus. And why would we wanna wed ourselves with those kinds of messages? I think it is unfortunately then we are putting, the media or politics above our theology, and I don’t like that, you know. No.
I don’t either. But I’m I’m I’ve heard some people say that, hey, I can watch this stuff and it really doesn’t affect the way that I feel about Muslims. The way that I feel about Muslims is because what I know really is going on, but when I hear all this stuff on the media, I’m not really affected. What are your thoughts about that? Well, that yeah.
I run a, you know, I’m also a psychotherapist, and I run groups for guys who are addicted to sex addictions, and they will often come in and go, you know, I can watch pornography and it doesn’t affect me. And I go, yeah, why don’t we check with your wife about that, you know? Oh, yeah. What I mean, because it insidiously it insidiously makes you think about women in really disgusting and sinful ways. Right.
You know? The same thing. You’re getting bombarded by a message that says that Muslims are just evil, that you can’t trust them. That affects you. It can’t help but affect you, you know?
Or in the same way, or a message that says, you know, Islam is just a peaceful religion. Nonsense. Do you think that interpretations of the of the Islam that are good. There are some interpretations of Islam that aren’t. ISIS interpretation, the Taliban, Al Qaeda.
Those are evil interpretations based on the consequences of those beliefs. Right? Right. So that would be even the way we would refute. Like, some people would be like, oh, well, you’re for Muslims or you’re against Muslims.
You know, it it’s almost like Jesus is completely other. It’s like, no. We can take the real complexity, and then we can apply Jesus to that real complexity. This is a real person with real beliefs, real issues, and then deal with it at the heart of each individual. But that’s so complicated.
Right? That’s so that’s not easy. We want these evangelistic crusades and well, not crusades, obviously. But, you know, we want to use the c word. I think it’s easy, and we make it complicated.
Alright. Okay. Explain. It is so easy because what’s the what’s the reality? We all need to find our identity in Jesus Christ.
That’s true of a Jew. That’s true of a Muslim. That’s true of anyone, you know? Right. And that’s our goal.
That that should be our goal. And when it’s not and it gets often to other things, I think we are confused and we complexify things needlessly. Help us understand a little bit about your personal journey in working with Muslims, and and share a little bit about your story. I mean, we in the introduction, talked a little bit about your, your academic background, but how about some personal experience in working with Muslims? Yeah.
With yeah. I’ve had a lot of personal experience working with Muslims because it was a time in my life when I considered myself a Muslim. Right? Okay. Well, we didn’t share that we didn’t share that in the intro.
So go go ahead and explain a little bit about that. Yeah. Yeah. And I, and, you know, that was a that was a phase of my life, and eventually came to the Lord. And but what I realized, and I tell you that experience has been invaluable, it is the patience with which God dealt with me, you know, and the process with which he, you know, didn’t reject me, was loving and accepting to me throughout that whole process, and even some Christians who who were there were some some that were really pushy, wanted me to come up with some, you know they had a magical formula that I needed to say certain words, and that suddenly I would be different.
But then there were those who were wiser and saw it as a process. And I tell you, the way that god dealt with me and the way that really loving Christians dealt with me helped me to, you know, come to a real love for Jesus Christ. And I have really tried to hold on to to that in dealing with Muslims that I wanna be with them in the same way that God was with me when I was in error and, you know, at I I just, there are times when I get frustrated with Muslims. There are times I get frustrated with any of them. You know?
There are times that I’m just just so infuriated by ISIS and going, what in the world? And I blame Islam for that. I go, get a grip. You know? You gotta get back to, you know, the while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
He didn’t wait for us to clean up the act. He accepted us just as we are, and I realized that is my goal. That is my strategy. I guess there is one in dealing with the most I accept them just the way they are right now and realize that this person in front of me was creating the image of thought and that they’re and because the most infinite infinitely valuable person in the universe died for them, that makes them infinitely valuable to me and that I need to love that and be as gentle as possible, not hide the truth, but but realize that this is this is this process. Don’t know if that’s an answer to your question.
I think that was really the process of being a Muslim and realizing the hope of moving beyond. The Muslims them themselves were wonderful, the ones I dealt with. Not all of them. Some of my ones just smack upside their head, you know, but, the, but that’s true of everybody. Right?
Right. Yeah. That I mean, that’s it. One one thing I heard you say one time that I think was kinda life altering as simple as it was was, hey, they’re just people that happen to be Muslim. Right.
Yeah. We but we want we wanna define them so much by the religious identity that, that just might not be the case, and and we think of them as somewhat different because of their, faith. Yeah. I mean, but but beneath it all, we beneath all of that, we’re creating that image of God. Beneath all of that, we are apparently very valuable to God, or at least very loved by God.
And because we are loved by God, then we are valued. Right? Because we are loved, we are lovable. There’s nothing intrinsically lovable about us, but because we are loved by God, we are lovable. And to me, that is such good news and such liberating news, and that I could be the same way toward Muslims or or or anyone else right now.
I’m, although I like reaching out to Muslims, I love reaching out to atheists. I I I love them. You know? They’re just, they’re as crazy as I am, you know, and and still need, they need you know, Psalm 84, Trevor, was the one that always hits me when it says our hearts cry out for the living God. Our our hearts time for the living God.
That’s true for a Muslim heart as it is for our heart. Right. So if you have that assumption that because they’re created in the image of God and that the heart that is within them is given to them by God, they’re crying out for the living God. We need to be the people that represent God to them. Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit, represent the love of Christ to them.
Yeah. Not be an impediment and be a hater and all of those things. Be a hater. Right. You know, I’m just driving them away.
I don’t understand that mentality. Well, what about apologetics, though? I mean, it seems that the primary it seems that the primary motive whenever, you know, you’re sharing with, the church, it’s like, well, explain to us how to, convert a Muslim and defend the faith, and apologetics quickly turns into polemics. And the next thing you know, they’re wanting you to tell them how, how can I insult Mohammed or how can I take this approach, and and it’s very bizarre? I mean, what are your thoughts on all of that?
I’m not big on apologetics. I think it’s nice and it’s a nice profession and that kind of thing, to but I find apologetics is more for us, you know, becoming clear about what we believe. Mhmm. That’s a good point. Not necessarily so helpful in reaching out to other people.
Although we I mean, it’s nice to know the truth, you know Right. That you don’t wanna misrepresent things when you reach out to people. But why I don’t like the way the way that apologetics has gone is it is largely a cognitive thing. You know what I mean? And most people that come to the Lord, thinking is a part of that, but it’s largely the heart.
Right. You know, emotions and all of those kinds of things. We are not Spock, you know? There are just I mean, an apologetic assumes that everybody is fucked, and that by just racking them with truth, that that’s gonna make the change. No no no no no.
I mean, it’s I I that’s why I think, you know, you try to reach, you know, reach them as people, people with emotions, people with value. Right. Also, thinking people. We don’t wanna be, you know, just, Minus. Yeah.
I mean, you know, and be utterly irrational about it, but, I just think apologetics is pretty weak. Right. I’ve never led anyone to the Lord with apologetics. Yeah. I mean, it doesn’t reach the whole person Right.
You know? Has Jesus reached the whole person? I never heard him go did you ever hear him anywhere in the gospel go up? You know, well, here are the 3 main essential points about me that you need to grasp, and we need to get your systematic straight down. Right.
No. No. No. No. He dealt with them relationally.
Right. He touched their emotions and and their mind and and their mind. So much more time, Matthew. I mean, we we just don’t have the time to sit down and get to know somebody. You’re talking relationships here, and, that’s tough.
Yeah. Yeah. And time with money and all of that. Right. I understand.
Yeah. So you you shared some strategies. I don’t wanna say strategies, but you you shared your heart in reaching Muslims. You said patience was one of them. Being a student of of, of each individual, like, you know, what their what their experience has been, what what are some other things that you would share to encourage our listenership to to reach out?
For me, one of the things that I often when I often will do is be very honest that I don’t know a lot, and that I’m learning as much as they are, and that together, we can study together to see what, you know, what the bible says or, you know, those kinds of things. I mean, Carlos Maderas has been fantastic in that in that process. And I know he gets beaten up by people, but I don’t think he really cares that much. Good for him. Good for him.
You know, because I think he’s just so largely successful because he has this thing of loving Muslims, you know, hanging out with them, talking about life, and, and, you know, Paul Tillich, who was just this utterly liberal theologian, had this what he called the method of correlation, where he would correlate theology with the the person’s kind of lived existential situation. I like the method of I call it a more method of correlation to, and I’ve seen Carl do it, and I really like doing it, is you take what the person is going through and you make that connection with with Jesus or the word of Oh, yeah. Word of God. Not in an apologetic kind of way. Right.
But common ground. Kinda. Yeah. You know? But even those terms are loaded, common ground these days.
I mean, it’s almost like we’re being soft on on Islam because you wanna meet someone where they’re at. That soft I think what’s soft is to go the apologetic route or just to hate because that’s very easy to do. Woah. The hard the hard thing the hard thing is getting in there, being in relationship. I mean, anybody who’s married knows what I’m talking about.
I don’t know what you’re talking about. Love my wife. My wife loves me. I have to tell you, the 1st year at the end of my 1st year marriage, my wife said, was this easy for you? And I said, yeah.
And she goes, that’s what I was afraid you were gonna say. Things are gonna change. I loved that because, you know, this is not supposed to be easy when I when when when God describes marriage as like bone to bone and flesh of flesh, I think the word we have in English a complicated process. And I think reaching another human being with love and their faults and our faults is really complicated. Hating?
That’s easy. Absolutely. You know, we’ve gone the easy route. You know? Let’s go the difficult route of love.
That’s good stuff. As as we come to a close, I I was thinking in in terms of some of the things you’ve been doing here recently, with some of the think tanks. Could you share with us a little bit about some of the, participation you’ve had in, in think tanks? Yeah. There are some think tanks in Washington DC.
I’m I’m not gonna give the names right now because No problem. You see what I mean? Yeah. But they’re long established think tanks that are beginning to look at a a topic of Muslims in the United States. And one of the beautiful things that that happened as I was going there, and I always laugh because there are Muslims, they’re Jews, and they’re Christians.
Anyway, you know, here I was raised a Jew, became a Muslim, and now a Christian. So I went, I would get to represent all 3 groups. It sounds like the beginning of a joke. Right. I list the whole history of western religion, you know.
It is but the beautiful thing is that you you’re sitting across from from Muslims and and Jews and Christians who are like, how how do we cooperate, as citizens in the United States, right, on on really difficult issues. Be safe, and at the same time, live out this wonderful American tradition of religious liberty, and I find that so so exciting. And and, you know, there are difficult moments, and a lot of the work happens after the meeting when we go out for, you know, a late, a late Reuben sandwich, you know, or something like that, you know. I just wanna know what kind of restaurant you guys find where the Christians, Muslims, and Jews can all agree on something to eat. I mean, that sounds complicated.
It was a very that’s a very good question, Trevor, because the first time they said, well, you know, there’s a bar really close. And my Muslim said, let’s not. And and the the the trees were, like, why not? You know? And then the other was but then, you know, there was one barbecue place Wow.
Like, no. We don’t wanna go there, you know? Right. Pork barbecue does not float my boat. So, it it was really interesting to see that that die dynamic.
And so if it happens on those little issues, you can imagine how it happened with really big really big issues, but we learn to trust each other and listen to each other there. It’s really nice. I have to tell you, I was, one time I got a phone call from one of the guys who’s in the group. He says, you know, the meeting was supposed to start at 6 or 7, something like that. And he said, can we meet for a couple hours before that?
Because, I really want to know how a Christian feels when they worship. I really don’t know what that’s like. And we had a great time, you know, talking about that. I mean, that’s for me the real the real stuff that happens. The rest of the stuff talking about radicalization and deradicalization, I mean, that’s fine, you know.
But when you get down to hard issues and understanding each other as human beings, that’s for me more exciting. Well, I I can’t help but ask, and I I don’t know if you wanna talk about this. It’ll probably be the last topic. And and I’ve I’ve mentioned to you, we wanna have you back on the show as as often as you can, but I know that everybody’s question, because of your background and your training, they’re wondering what is, the psychological profile or the profile of a radical, a terrorist, not even just a Muslim terrorist, but a terrorist? That’s the big question everybody’s wanting to know.
How do we know who these people are, and what are your thoughts on that? Right. There’s a lot of research that’s been done, a lot of bad research, but a lot of really, really good research in the particularly in the last few years. And, overall, there’s great consensus. I mean, the, New York Police Department, FBI, sometimes just agrees on this.
Wow. But everyone else tends to agree that there is no good profile of a terrorist. And that that we are struck by the ordinariness of of of terrorists and the diversity that’s there. There’s some broad brushstrokes that they tend to be within a particular they tend to be male, they tend to be within a particular age group, you know, etcetera. But those are such broad categories that they don’t help you identify them in any way.
You know what I mean? Yeah. They’d be just about everybody in any way. To a mosque. Yeah.
I mean, you go to a mosque and everybody is a suspect. Well, that’s not real helpful. That might be part of the problem Yeah. That people are so afraid in in lumping everyone together. Yeah.
And and not to mention the violation of civil rights, along those lines. You know, if you’re if just by being a Muslim in a particular age group, you’re a suspect, that’s pretty pathetic, you know, and not real helpful. I mean, how do you use that to I mean, we only have limited resource, limited money. And when you paint with such broad brushstrokes, that’s not helpful for identifying the terrorists. So now the emphasis seems to be on what is the process of radicalization.
Right? That sounds interesting. Yeah. And, Dan, what would if if we focus on the process of radicalization, then what would be the process of deradicalization? I’m excited about that rather than the nonsense of what’s coming up with a pro come up with a profile.
Right. It’s too broad to be of any help to us at all. Right? Yeah. Well, I’m I’m glad that we talked today primarily about reaching Muslims, but I’m certain that listeners are thinking can we also talk about the process?
And so I’m hoping we can have you back and talk about some of the latest research that’s been done about that process. And maybe that would kind of bring back some of those fears and get us from keep us from, as you said, sabotaging ourselves and our witness. Yeah. I I would I would love to do that Wonderful. And love to hear from people who think that I’m utterly crazy and I need to consider it.
Consider other things that I haven’t considered and have that dialogue go on. That would be fun, you know? Yeah. Well, Matthew, thank you so much for your time. Thank you.
Yeah. It’s been a pleasure and, we look forward to doing this again. Okey doke. Okay. All the best.
Alright. Well, that was a great interview. Trevor, what do you think? Excellent. Excellent.
I really appreciate, his book and I think that he is able to, only in an hour give a little bit of an overview and that’s why we wanna make his book the resource of the week. Right. I you know, listeners, I I want you to think, I I don’t want you to think that this was Don’t think. Don’t listen. I don’t want you to think that this is all that is to know.
I mean, obviously, he has a ton more. So, please, like, read his book. Resource of the week is going to be that book. Yeah. He has the Kindle version is on sale.
It’s 599. Yikes. And I wasn’t exaggerating in the interview when I said, this is the book that I recommend to people when they after sharing in a conference or at a church and they say, you know, I wanna know more. What should I read? I do recommend this book as a starting point.
Right. And does he have other books? No. He’s got a few in the works, but he has a lot going on. Like he said, he’s working with some think tanks and he’s also got a pretty, busy practice as well.
So he he is a lot, you know, like I said, 2 PhDs. He’s got a pretty amazing, ministry going on right now. Right. It’s actually a privilege because he’s a busy, busy man, and he came and he did this, interview with us. He was gracious.
It was awesome. We had a great time. Yeah. So what did you think, Aaron? Actually, you know, it’s really, really interesting just to kinda, hear people that really have a heart for Muslims.
It’s it’s different. It’s like, it’s really different than the media. Right? The media, you kinda get this sense that, you know, we’re against Islam, but you you don’t really have the sense that they actually know any Muslims. Yeah.
That that was what was so challenging, or even enlightening is when he said, people are often accused that wanna sit down and sort of humanize Muslims as being soft on Islam. And his perspective was no being, soft is the one who is a hater because it’s not easy to do that. You don’t have to think. You just hate. You don’t have to sit sit down and get to know a person.
That was challenging. Good stuff. And it was a good point. Like, I hate being categorized. I hate being pigeonholed because I know I’m more than just that one element that they might have noticed.
Right? And then we’re doing this to to Muslims and then we’re being accused of being soft. It’s really bizarre. It’s funny because, you know, listeners, you don’t know this, but Howard is very talented in worship leading. But Thank you.
Because something about when you see him, you know, he’s Korean. You just assume, like, he’s really good at math or something. Right. No. No.
I’ve I’ve actually had people, like, if they’ve never seen me leave leave worship, they’ll they’ll sit down and be like, oh, boy. This is not gonna be good. Because I’m very Asian. I’m very Asian. I do have facial hair, which is bizarre.
But, I mean, they’re they they think, oh, this guy can’t speak English probably, and then he’s gonna start singing these songs and it’s gonna be awkward. And he comes out with this bluesy worship, and you’re like, woah. That was a bluesy. That’s nice. A little bit of soul there.
I appreciate that. I didn’t know that. Okay. Yeah. So I think what he helped us to do is what, really, we all need to be doing all the time is start actually getting to know people.
Right. Yeah. And that’s not easy. I agree with him. I think he made a really good point.
What’s easy is to hate, What’s hard is to get to know real people, to care about them, to have patience with them in their process just like Christ has patience for us. I mean, I know in my life it’s true. And and, and and really make an impact that way, 1 by 1. Right? Because it’s not gonna be this huge campaign that, you know, we’re gonna I don’t know what what we think of when we think in the media, but the media is very much like, they they manipulate it so that that, Islam or these Muslims are an enemy to our faith.
And I think a lot of times, the vast majority of Muslims, they just wanna eat some sandwiches. They just wanna go to school. They just wanna be left alone. Right? They’re not sitting there trying to convert every white person or every black person or every Asian person to to Islam.
Right? I mean, there obviously has been instances in the past, but this is very like like, Matthew Stone said, it’s complicated. It’s not that easy. It is complicated. Think of it in the terms of Christians.
Not every Christian really has any desire whatsoever to engage in the great commission. And then there are Christians that are very missionally minded. There are Christians that are theologically driven. There are Christians that are politically driven, sociological driven, and there’s a whole complexity of a person when it comes to, a religion and a religious text. And I think he brought all that home for us and and kind of broke down the oversimplification that we do.
Right. And I really liked what he said about apologetics. I mean, I do applaud these brilliant minds that come up with, these volumes of apologetics and and texts and stuff. But, at the same time, I love what he said. It’s helpful for us as a believer, but it’s really not helpful to convert, to to lead someone to the Lord with, with using, you know, philosophy.
I mean, really, it is a step of faith. To follow Christ is a step of faith. So, you’re not going to be able to lead them all the way to the point where they’re like, yeah, absolutely. Jesus is, you know, it is a step of faith, and I think that’s what we kinda have to remember. So it it maybe is a tool if if you can use it well.
Well, I think what he was saying is that it’s a tool, but it’s one tool. Right. You can’t just minister to the mind. Right. You can’t minister to the mind as though it’s this sort of part of the body that’s separated from the rest of the body.
You have a whole person. You have to minister to the whole person. Right. And I think you have to have a heart for Muslims from the very get go. I don’t think evangelism works when you don’t care about the people.
Well, that’s where he was saying we sabotage. That was that was enough to think about. Ask yourself that. You know, listener, have I sabotaged, my desires to reach out to a Muslim? Have I sabotaged the whole process before I even got to meet a Muslim?
And if so, how? And then ask yourself, how do I how do I correct it? That would be something worth writing in about. How have you or do you think you have, sabotaged your your evangelistic strategy with Muslims? Right.
Well, that’s it for this week. I’m so glad we got to have Matthew Stone on today. And, as always, we wanna hear your comments just like Trevor had mentioned, write in, and, that’ll help shape the show. But, we really appreciate you guys for listening. Yeah.
Make sure you check out his book on Amazon, Matthew Stone, Reaching the Heart and Mind of Muslims. Thank you. We’ll see you next week.