In this lecture, Vivienne Stacey continues discussing how Muslim women deal with the supernatural, the occult, and power encounters in folk Islam. The issues of relics and exorcism are addressed in this 2nd part of the Folk Islam lectures. These lectures were given at Columbia International University in partnership with the Zwemer Center for Muslim Studies. The Zwemer Center was founded in 1979 and exists to offer comprehensive courses on Islam, facilitate research, foster dialogues, offer seminars, conduct training, and provide resources for effective witness and ministry among Muslims. We also have a course study guide for these lectures that you might find helpful.
Here starts the auto-generated transcription of Vivienne Stacey’s Lecture on Muslim women and Folk Islam (exorcism and relics) Pt. 2:
So and this is the second in our series on Muslim women, the supernatural, the occult, and power encounter. And, we’ve dealt with the general thoughts about revealed religion and folk religion, and we’ve thought about miracles at shrines. Now relics. Well, we’re familiar with relics. The Roman Catholics, have quite a lot of relics, and sometimes high Anglicans seem to have some.
And it’s not an unusual concept in the Christian traditions, nor, of course, in Islam. Now I had an experience about 20 years ago, which, changed my views to some extent. I went as a visitor to see the Badshahi mosque in Lahore in Pakistan. I’d been before, but I went again. And when I’d gone before, there was not it was a normal orthodox Sunni mosque, probably the largest in the world, but, it vies with the mosque in Delhi, as to whether it’s the largest in the world and whether it’s how do you estimate a mosque?
By the the dome part and the size of that or the courtyard for prayer and so on. Anyway, very famous Mughal building, going back to the 16th century or a bit earlier, Badshahi mosque in the Haw. But this time when I went, there was an exhibition on, and it was an exhibition of 27 relics. And I found it very strange, that in the center of an Orthodox mosque or in the buildings connected with the Orthodox mosque, as you came in the main entrance and you turned right, you could go to this exhibition, which had a school of Orthodox theology attached to it, where students studied to be prepared as leaders in the or Sunni, faith. I found it very strange to find this evidence, to me at least, of folk religion.
And, first, I made it I I went in the line through. Every relic was under glass, and you if it’s reasonably small, it’s it’s sort of eye level. And displayed there, some of it’s a bit larger, was Mohammed’s walking stick and 3 of his sandals, his underwear, his banner with magic squares on it, Fatima’s handkerchief, Fatima’s prayer mat, dust from the battlefield at Karbala, that battle of 661 AD in Iraq. Some of the viewers got as near as possible to the relics, and they were rubbing their hands on the glass. I I saw 2 women ahead of me.
When they came to the dust of the battlefield of Karapala, where, Hussein was killed, and, where it’s the shears marked the beginning of their it’s a very, very significant battle, involving Ali and his 2 sons, Hassan and Husayn, and they are regarded the ones killed were regarded as martyrs, and it’s celebrated every year in the time of Maharam. And you’ve probably may have seen processions or pictures of processions of men cutting themselves, and it’s that’s in identifying with the suffering of those leaders of 661 AD, who were killed in Karbala. Karbala is a center for pilgrimage as well. But these women were rubbing, their hands on the glass near to the dust of that battlefield and then rubbing their hands on their face, transferring the blessing of being near to that place to themselves. And they were crying.
So I realized that they were Shia, probably. So this Orthodox mosque and its school of theology were attracting Sunni and Shia Muslims, and Pakistan is 90% Sunni, 10% Shia, and attracting both those who are orthodox and those who are engaged in Focal Islam. And this, in a sense, was a Focal Islam kind of exhibition. I have the 27 things listed somewhere, but, it was a very interesting experience. Relics. And sometimes, there’s a mosque in, Surinaga in Kashmir, which has, some of the hair of Mohammed. Somebody wrote an article once on the rape of the lock, but, it’s a poem written a title of a poem that Pope, actually, Alexander Pope Pope, wrote. But anyway, a hair of Muhammad becomes a relic. And, there are lots of different relics around. The tooth of Muhammad becomes a relic.
Oh, there were 3 teeth in this exhibition too of of, they weren’t Muhammad’s, but, I think from his companions or people in the time of Muhammad who were closely associated with him. Well, I think this is folk Islam. Exorcism. Yeah. Exorcism.
The first time I heard Muslims, engaging in exorcism was in Muscat. Muscat is the capital of the Sultanate of Oman. It it gets even hotter than than, Colombia. There’s a Persian poet who says, that Muscat reminds the panting sinner of his future deaths destiny. I’ve been thinking about it when I walk outside here, but but, definitely, it’s hotter.
Muscat is surrounded on 3 sides by mountain and the 4th side by the sea, and, things echo quite well in that part. It’s a very ancient, capital, and I went there first in 1969 when the oil the effects of oil hadn’t transformed this the capital area. But I heard one night Muslim exorcists at work, for hours in the evening and early part of the night, they were trying to cast out evil spirits. And it was listening to the chanting of the exorcists and the shrieks of the afflicted. It was a kind of eerie and chilly experience.
I talked to some friends. I was staying with a lady who who spoke excellent Arabic. She was an American, and, she’d been there many years, and she had many, Muslim friends, and she took me visiting to visit meet some of her friends. 1 of her friends had a problem with an evil spirit and had been to a Muslim exorcist. Sometimes, they are made okay.
So you can have a successful exorcism, by these Muslim religious leaders who exercise this or I should say, engage in exorcism. But what is the source of it, of course? That is the question. And how long will the cure last? And what is the state of the person who got into it in the 1st place and has got out of it in the 2nd place by the same power, power of Satan.
Now I never intended to get myself involved in Christian exorcism, and I never intended to write a book called Christ Supreme Over Satan. I intended to write all the other things that I have written so far. That one, I wrote because I somehow, my experience got enlarged in this field of folk religion, and somehow, I got thrown into situations, particularly, I in the cleansing of houses, but also in in the helping people who are demonized, or you might say, possessed. I think I prefer to say demonized. It’s nearer to the Greek, but taken over by Satan.
So out of obedience, I wrote this book. And, I didn’t have so much trouble and but, in writing it, but the people who, some of one of our guests had a lot of trouble when she came. I was writing the book. She didn’t know I was writing this book. Satan, beat up on a few of my friends. But, god, sort of kind of protected me in the writing or it might have been very difficult otherwise, I suppose. I don’t know. But so, I my I’ll share share my own feelings about exorcism. I don’t get involved in it unless I’m absolutely sure God wants me to be involved in this particular case. And actually, I I was involved in an exorcism in in this last month in Cyprus.
About 3 months ago, I was hearing from a member of the bible class, which I lead in the church, about the problems of a certain person. And I was giving I think this person thought that the other person was being attacked or had some something was happening as far as evil spirits were concerned. Anyway, this person in the study group, would come to me for advice on how to deal with this situation. And so I was just in this position of of giving advice, which was fine. I wanted, anyway, to to train.
I I’m we now, I could say, have a team in the church which which could, help in cases of exorcism. And but when, after a few weeks, things mounted up, and so I decided that I would join with this person and with the couple who were involved, who the wife was in problems about the spirit. And so in my home, we had a we had lunch together and then a session. And I I really One never knows what will happen, and one has to We had prayed about it, and we had prepared ourselves. Anyway, so what did happen what I do is analyze afterwards what happens, and you get the principles, and it was very clear.
For 45 minutes, I questioned the woman who was having trouble, and I asked her, what is your relationship to Jesus? What is your relationship to the Father? What is your relationship to the Holy Spirit? I probed and I probed. And it became clear that, although she’d gone to church for many years, and although she she, perhaps thought that she was Christian, became clear that she certainly wasn’t a committed Christian, and there was some doubt.
I I didn’t want to say, you’re not a Christian or you’ve never believed, but I probed and I probed. I think she realized that her ground was shaky. And I also warned her, if anything is cast out by the power of Christ, if there is no filling from God, then more powers can come. Then the second half of the conversation, as I analyzed it, was another sort of probing from me on her encounters with the occult. Now she told me of several, once something that happened 30 years ago, something that happened 20 years ago, and something else.
But, then we got to, she didn’t tell me what happened 1 or 2 years ago in Kenya. She didn’t tell me about the witch doctor, who was scared to come back into their compound on one occasion, but who worked as their gardener, and whom she’d sat. But anyway, this came out in the I don’t know why, you see. Why did she tell me these other things and somehow forget to tell me the thing that was nearer and even more sinister? So after these two lines of talking, and with some help from my friend whom we who with whom I’d been praying and telling and advising, I said, let’s spend a time let’s pray.
And, I said to this woman, if you may pray, you pray. She obviously didn’t want to pray, but the husband prayed I prayed, and the husband prayed. And then suddenly, I saw my friend, standing over the woman with her hands not not touching her, but with her hands here, and commanding the evil spirit to leave. And then the evil spirit left, and this woman started to praise the Lord. And we praised the Lord.
We were all full of joy and praise, and, we were I I don’t sort of cry or weep very easily, but I was, we all had tears, and it was a joyful ending. Okay. Well, I’m using I want to use this as this is a recent thing, but there what is so important is x is diagnosis. If you’re not sure if someone is demonized, then don’t proceed. We were sure when it came to it.
And when I compared notes with my friend afterwards, she had said she thought this this was the case before the lunch party and the session afterwards. And I said, I thought so too, but, there was no doubt by the time when we had gone through the questioning. And, then now things don’t always they sometimes take a long time. Like, when I was helping in the invitation of a Christian doctor in Egypt in his hospital, and I I told you I joined I said, 3 hours a day, I’ll join you. The whole system the whole matter was not cleared up when I was there, but it was wonderfully cleared up for about 3 months later.
And this woman, who whose touch with Islam seemed to be that her parents had taken to her her to a shrine when she was young, baby or no. Not a baby, but a child. And, she came from a Coptic background, not Muslim background. But she I she was, I had to make my own diagnosis before I would join the team. It had to be done everything had to be done through Arabic translation.
And, when I had cross questioned her about her relationship with Jesus, it was quite clear that she didn’t really know him, although her husband did. And, I said to my translator, I want to pray for this woman, but don’t you don’t need to translate. I’ll pray in English. She didn’t know English. And in my prayer, when I came to the place where I said, by thy stripes, we are healed, when I quoted Isaiah, I referred, you see, to the death of Christ, to the suffering of Christ, to the blood of Christ.
Then this woman was violent. She was sitting there, we’d had a talk and so on, and and she was sitting there while I was praying, but she didn’t know that I mentioned the blood of Christ. She didn’t know that I mentioned, by his stripes, we are healed. But she it took 4 people to hold her down. And, this each night, it was a bit like this, and they would take her in on front of the, they’d take her in the main part of the church.
We were in the church. And, in Arabic and in English, 2 members of the team or more would command the evil spirit to come out. We’d say where to come out, and we’d, praise the name of Jesus. We would do many things, but it was very stubborn. It was very difficult.
But she was wonderfully healed, and what the evil was cast out. And, I went back to that hospital about 2 years ago. This episode took place about 4, 5 or 6 years ago. And, I met her husband. She was back in the village, but he has a wonderful ministry.
He, works in the hospital. He’s, able to read the bible. He’s not otherwise literate, but he he’s able to read the Bible. And she and he, do visit many places in villages and share about Jesus and his salvation and his deliverance, and they have a very wonderful ministry. Well, I can give you I can tell you about Muslims who are have been troubled, but I can’t tell you what you’re gonna be facing when you go to these interesting places that I’ve been reading about in your report your questionnaire and so on. I was reading through last night. Okay. Turkey and, and you’ve been to Kenya and Northwest China and various other interesting places. I don’t know what you will face, but, and you may not come across this kind of thing at all. Don’t look for it.
Look for a folk Islam, but don’t look for involvement in in exorcism. But if god calls you in a particular situation, he will give you wisdom for that situation. He gives some of his gifts, he gives them temporarily for situations, particular situations. He gives gifts permanently to some people. I think the person I worked with in my bible study group, she has a gift of healing, and I think it’s a permanent gift of healing. So as I see her operate, she we have a prayer service sometimes after church. People come, and, 2 of us will pray with that person. But there have been quite a number of wonderful healings, and, not always, but, but people appreciate the prayers. So she has that ministry. I don’t know whether she has a ministry of exorcism or not.
She and I both were together in this situation a month ago, so there is a gift being exercised. I think it’s good if it’s a team. You need a team, and, and God will only give his glory to himself. He will not give his glory to another. If you have a team, it’s a team effort, and and you acknowledge God. I think it would be very dangerous to be acknowledged as an exorcist, anyway. It’s dynamite. It’s like handling dynamite. Don’t look for it, but don’t be afraid either. God gives whatever is needed for whatever situation you do get into.
So how now I’ve been much more involved in the cleansing of buildings, and I have strong ideas about that, the cleansing of buildings. I would advise you to think carefully about any place that you live in, any house that you take, any flat or apartment that you, go to live in. I had a small cottage built for me when there was no room left in the other buildings of the hospital, and it wasn’t wise for a single person to live out in the town. So I had the pleasure of designing my own little cottage and praying with my friends that the money would come for it, and it did. So now you’d think just moving into a a cottage, newly built on a Christian compound, even though it’s in a remote part of the of Asia, that you might not need to cleanse it.
And I think there are reasons why one should cleanse. There are 3 4 reasons. You don’t know what happened on that land before. We don’t know what happened on that land. You never know what’s happened on the land, what has been done.
There might have been a terrible battle there. There might have been all sorts of ghastly things might have happened. We don’t know what was on that land. We don’t know how the builders built. I know that every building in Afghanistan is built, with a the builders have a kind of doll. It’s an image. It goes to the highest point of the building. It’s to appease evil spirits. It’s an insurance policy. It’s a safety protection. It’s appeasing evil powers as they build. Okay? Well, I don’t know what they did to my cottage. They might have put a charm in the wall. They might have done a little sacrifice, maybe a blood sacrifice or something, on the foundations, and I didn’t know.
They were Muslim builders. I don’t know what they did and how involved they were in folk practices, but I’d like to be sure there’s no influence from it. So that’s the second reason. The third reason, if it doesn’t apply to a new building, but you don’t know what the people who had your apartment before did in it, I have, I was asked to help in the cleansing of a house, actually, in Toronto. It had some very weird signs.
It had been inhabited for some years by some practitioner of, occults. Don’t know what she did, but she was a kind of witch. And it was a very uncomfortable house, and there were peculiar signs, which I saw, and, occult signs. Anyway, with 2 other people, we went, 2 of us, 4 or 3 of us, went through every room. In each room, we praised God.
In each room, we prayed for the cut well, first we cut prayed for the casting out of evil. We we read Scripture and we praised. And we if it was the bedroom, we prayed and praised. We prayed that people would sleep well. In the sitting room and dining room, we prayed that people would eat and relax well.
But first, in every room, we prayed for the cleansing of the room. You might say, why every room? I don’t know. I just, have found that it’s wise to go to each part, and if it’s a flat roof, to go to the roof and, to go out into the garden or yard. It’s interesting that who the person who came afterwards to live in that place said what a wonderful peace there was in that home, in that house, but it’s because God had cleansed it.
So think about it. There’s a fourth reason. There are, sometimes, there are activities and influences from outside. Somebody once brought a person to my flat in Paphos, and said that, she would this lady would like to join the bible class. So when we chatted over tea for about an hour or so, this lady said, I think you I should tell you that I’m a spiritualist.
I’m a spiritualist or a spiritualist. And then she proceeded to tell me all sorts of things that she powers that she had. On another occasion, I had 2, a couple a fine Christian couple were there for a meal, and I had invited a Cypriot and his, Australian friend who was an Italian, extraction. And this Italian chap, he said, I’ve got power over 3 pints of spirits. So my friend said, well, what do you do with that power, and why do you have it?
And so on. Quite obvious. They’re both in got involved in new age, these 2 young men. Okay? So we had special prayer for the cleansing of my flat afterwards. Interestingly enough, when I was having my siesta before they came and before I knew anything about this kind of background, I had a terrible nightmare. So I had gone through the flat before they came and prayed for God’s protection. So it’s dynamite, some of this. But why if you are the servant of the lord, why should you have unnecessary hassle? You can have a very simple service.
Don’t have to shout it from the rooftops. So just a few of you going through your place where you’re gonna live, and praying for for cleansing and giving thanks to God, reading the scripture. Why, were Mildred White not Mildred White, Mildred Cable and Francesca French, who worked in China, they said, the housewarming oh, no. That’s not the one. Yeah.
The Christian’s home or tent must ever be holy ground, even although all around be evil, for the embassy is privileged land. And here, the ambassador, the ambassador of Christ, enjoys extraterritorial rights. So your home, your base, it matters. And if, you have known its cleansing and its security, that’s it’s very important to have a place that you know is cleansed and, secure. And sometimes, there’s a need for for further cleansing.
It doesn’t need a service, but you need to pray, Lord, the spiritist has been here. Cleanse this place. Fill it with your glory. And, so I ask you to consider about the cleansing of buildings. I have even been involved with a pastor in the cleansing of a church in one of the Arabian countries. Satan has a go, but, the son of God was manifested that he might destroy the works of the devil. So let us count on this, and let us have secure bases for our ministries wherever we go.